[andy popp]

Well now that the whole climbing community are on Matt Smythe training regimes, I think that everyone should set their return to climbing sights a little higher.

Gonna be climbing like beasts once allowed back on the crags with our hair tied back in pony tails...

 
From my recollection Smythe was singularly shit on the couple of occasions I saw him emerge from the cellar to test how his training was progressing. He'd then promptly attribute his performance to insufficient/incorrect training and retreat back underground.

Someone once told me that when he unleashed himself on the crags after his intensive systems training, he was spotted sitting on a rope on Bad, Bad Boy complaining the holds were too big.

I don't know if it's different now, but there were quite a lot of people in Sheffield in the 90s who didn't really deliver on their training.

[mrjonathanr]

Pete, the gap between what the govt has legislated for and what it publicly says the population ought to do is the problem here. The police are being pilloried for trying to enforce the latter, which does not have legal authority. They need clear instructions to work from.

It is incompetent communication from gov.uk

Here’s another: what provision are UK state schools making for children at home? If you find official guidance -please let me know! I’ve looked on gov.uk, DFE and Ofsted websites but can only find this:

6.1 What support will be available to parents to help them educate their children at home?
More information will follow about what DfE is doing to support parents. We are working with the BBC and others to provide resources for children to access while at home.

Taliking to friends and family KS2 provision seems to range from almost the full curriculum sent home down to virtually nothing.

[spidermonkey09]

If Gav really feels he can surf safely and can walk there from his house, I think it's overly harsh to tell him to look out his window at the waves. The only risk is of him calling out the emergency services and we should trust people's judgement here a little perhaps?

It's a slightly different situation to climbing where I could climb at an empty venue 5 mins from my house, smother the holds in virus and infect the next poor bugger to turn up after I leave.

Yep I agree re: personal responsibility; I was more questioning the idea of not doing what one felt was right despite it being technically allowed.

[Bonjoy]

Well now that the whole climbing community are on Matt Smythe training regimes, I think that everyone should set their return to climbing sights a little higher.

Gonna be climbing like beasts once allowed back on the crags with our hair tied back in pony tails...

 
From my recollection Smythe was singularly shit on the couple of occasions I saw him emerge from the cellar to test how his training was progressing. He'd then promptly attribute his performance to insufficient/incorrect training and retreat back underground.

Someone once told me that when he unleashed himself on the crags after his intensive systems training, he was spotted sitting on a rope on Bad, Bad Boy complaining the holds were too big.

I don't know if it's different now, but there were quite a lot of people in Sheffield in the 90s who didn't really deliver on their training.

It's no different now.
Except maybe now it's okay for fully indoor climbers to own up to the fact and not pretend it's training for something else.

[spidermonkey09]

Not the case. The Police in Cornwall were asked specifically about surfing and said they had no issue as long as you weren't driving there.

Do you have a link for this? I thought I saw it on Twitter in passing yesterday and can't seem to find it now.

The crux of the issue seems to not be the exercise, length or location, but whether it is acceptable to drive a short distance.

I agree. I maintain that it isn't, because 5 minutes for someone on the eastern edge of Sheffield to Burbage will become 10 mins, then the whole of Sheffield and eventually it becomes just like any normal weekend, and the lockdown has ceased to work. As I commented a few pages back:

"I think it's interesting to take a snapshot of the climbing community and consider what would happen if it became public knowledge, via people posting on here, photos on FB, whatever, that they were interpreting the guidance as allowing climbing and going out anyway. There might be an initial period of anger and slagging of the people doing it but I think it highly, highly likely that within a week the number of people out would increase. I would be fucking fuming if I saw/heard that some selfish nob was out at Malham taking advantage of an empty crag, but if in a months time loads of other people were doing it I can see that I might crack, as might lots of others.

Now translate that to walking in a national park and think about how the population might respond. Within a few weeks the lockdown would cease to exist in all but name. It's currently working precisely because people are going slightly beyond the letter of the law. People starting to take liberties with the "why can't I take a walk in the Peak" will swiftly become "why can't I drive to the peak from Leicester" and eventually "I'm driving to Yorkshire from Leicester." Obviously this is my example. At that point the lockdown has ceased to be effective, and it would have started with people taking individual decisions that are not in the spirit of the guidance. My interpretation anyway."

[SA Chris]

If Gav really feels he can surf safely and can walk there from his house, I think it's overly harsh to tell him to look out his window at the waves. The only risk is of him calling out the emergency services and we should trust people's judgement here a little perhaps?

It's a slightly different situation to climbing where I could climb at an empty venue 5 mins from my house, smother the holds in virus and infect the next poor bugger to turn up after I leave.

Yep I agree re: personal responsibility; I was more questioning the idea of not doing what one felt was right despite it being technically allowed.

A point to also consider is that of public perception. Gav may be perfectly safe paddling into a few grovellers at his local break, but is it worth it as some people would consider any surfing as a potentially dangerous activity, and / or feel it is "not right" to be doing it at this time. This could potentially have repercussions and damage relationships with surfers for a long time, both locally and further afield if they are shared on social media.

[kac]

Gav - can I ask where its come from thats its fine to go surfing? A quick look on Devon and Cornwall police website and in the coranavirus q and a there is the question can I go surfing. It says no, please dont go surfing per the advice of surfing England.

[Paul B]

Come on then, who's going to post the links to the two guardian articles, yesterday and today, about the police being accused of overreaching their powers... And the Supreme court judge accusing Derbyshire police of shaming British policing tradition etc. etc.

My Dad was a (traffic) policeman throughout his entire working life and it left me with an inherent trust in the police which is gradually slipping.

The Police should know their remit and act within it. They're perfectly at liberty to recommend best practice (i.e. the Gov. guidelines) alongside their enforcement. I'm astounded if they don't know the difference and concerned if they chose to not acknowledge it.

I think Judge Dredd was operating their social media yesterday.

[spidermonkey09]

Just found it, its here: https://www.surfingengland.org/do-not-go-surfing/

Its also on their instagram.

[Johnny Brown]

I assume everyone who thinks it isn't acceptable to drive to exercise is also not driving to the supermarket and making do with what they can get from walking to their local shop? I know which I would prioritise, ymmv. I'd also like reiterate I'm not so much thinking of myself as those stuck in flats in city centres.

People starting to take liberties with the "why can't I take a walk in the Peak" will swiftly become "why can't I drive to the peak from Leicester" and eventually "I'm driving to Yorkshire from Leicester."

I don't agree, it's very easy to put out a message to stay local. If police want to waste our/their time patrolling Burbage they could use some discretion with distance.

It's currently working precisely because people are going slightly beyond the letter of the law.

No, we're in that position because of a lack of information. The regs only came out a few days ago, and to think the words haven't been considered very carefully is naive.

Within a few weeks the lockdown would cease to exist in all but name.

No. We're in this for the long haul, we need to concentrate on measures that most effectively slow the spread while taking the least restrictive approach. I am hoping the Police overreaction on Curbar etc was to dissuade people travelling from afar and now that has ceased and proper regs are in place they will let locals get on with harmless healthy activities.

[steveri]

I've just done a motivational (ha!) email to my running club asking people to keep a lid on things. 'Normal' exercise for some of our lot is just not normal for most. A 20 miler sends the wrong message.

[spidermonkey09]

I don't agree, it's very easy to put out a message to stay local.

Fair enough, but I just don't think 'local' will cut it. There is such a massive amount of people that consider that Peak District local (using that as a case study). Sheffield, Manchester, Derby, Nottingham, Stoke. All within half an hours drive of the Peak District. Where do you think they are all going to go since so many are at home, kids are off school, sun is coming out? It would be a shambles. You may be within five minutes drive, so the 'local' rules you suggest would work well for you; not so much for everyone else.

I don't have an exit strategy either and agree that in time these restrictions will need to be eased, but think we should err on the cautious side for now.

Also, no, I am not driving to the supermarket.

[Oldmanmatt]

I assume everyone who thinks it isn't acceptable to drive to exercise is also not driving to the supermarket and making do with what they can get from walking to their local shop? I know which I would prioritise, ymmv. I'd also like reiterate I'm not so much thinking of myself as those stuck in flats in city centres.

People starting to take liberties with the "why can't I take a walk in the Peak" will swiftly become "why can't I drive to the peak from Leicester" and eventually "I'm driving to Yorkshire from Leicester."

I don't agree, it's very easy to put out a message to stay local. If police want to waste our/their time patrolling Burbage they could use some discretion with distance.

It's currently working precisely because people are going slightly beyond the letter of the law.

No, we're in that position because of a lack of information. The regs only came out a few days ago, and to think the words haven't been considered very carefully is naive.

Within a few weeks the lockdown would cease to exist in all but name.

No. We're in this for the long haul, we need to concentrate on measures that most effectively slow the spread while taking the least restrictive approach. I am hoping the Police overreaction on Curbar etc was to dissuade people travelling from afar and now that has ceased and proper regs are in place they will let locals get on with harmless healthy activities.

1: You’re actually preaching to the choir, I don’t think any of us think going climbing is a serious infection risk.

2: For sure, whilst things might not return to normal, restrictions will be up and down like a whore’s drawers (well, normal drawer activity for ladies of the night. I imagine they’re under employed right now) and you’ll be allowed out at some point; then shut in again.

3: “They” will not be listening, because “They” will take the most cautious route. Some patience on our part and I think a common sense interpretation will settle into place. Everyone is a bit lost.

[Stu Littlefair]

I don't agree, it's very easy to put out a message to stay local.

Fair enough, but I just don't think 'local' will cut it.

Got to agree with the monkey here. This is RSPB Dove Stone, after the lockdown, and after they'd closed the carpark.

https://twitter.com/RSPBDoveStone/status/1242916417718059010?s=20

I'd wager many of the people have come from Sheff/Manc consider themselves 'local'. Without some sort of pressure not to drive any distance for exercise I don't see how you stop these scenes repeating themselves every nice day, sadly.

[Will Hunt]

NB: I wrote this and it then said that 14 new replies have been posted. So this is probably all irrelevant now.

I have no idea whether there is a surfing equivalent of traversing or lowballing. If there is one then I would suggest that Gav would be perfectly sensible to walk two minutes from his house to do it. We have to ask ourselves why are we doing this? Is it to control the spread of an infectious disease and reduce the load on a stretched health service, or is it some form of collective self-flagellating penance?

For those who would argue that Gav is walking and then surfing (thus undertaking two forms of exercise), my understanding is that the spirit of the legislation is to get people to leave the house once a day for exercise (which is better for stopping spread than going out more than once), as opposed to trying to stop people carrying out two forms of exercise while they are out (which does nothing to slow the spread provided that one of those forms of exercise is not licking door handles). Those people can feel free to report me to the Police because when I went for my run last week I actually stopped to do some stretching and I also walked some of the way.

We already know that the legislation is poorly worded and doesn't convey the government's full intentions. They've had to issue advice not to drive to national parks because they forgot to mandate it in the legislation. Not the most important thing right now, but if the Police do punish people for driving to the countryside then I would think that they'd be acting unlawfully. If they did this normally we'd be up in arms. Paul, I think the police have been put in an unenviable position by the government. A hastily put together piece of legislation which passes through all stages of the two houses in, what was it, a day? It's bound to be shit! So the government then issues advice (it can't amend the legislation because Parliament is no longer sitting) to clarify what it meant - but that isn't law. What is the police supposed to do in such a circumstance?


Edit: it seems like the tone on UKB has now changed from a day or two ago, so let me put it to you again. Can I walk to my local shithole, which nobody ever bothers with, less than a mile from my house, and do some non-highball bouldering?

[tomtom]

I drive to the supermarket. I can’t carry a week or ten days worth of shopping on my own... (click and collect)

And it makes far more sense (to me) in reducing exposure risk to make one driven trip than 4-5 trips a week that going to smaller shops might entail.

I think it’s important to split the ‘risk’ from outside ventures into two main categories.

1. Risk of transmission: either giving or gaining.
2. Risk of involving emergency services etc.. wasting medical staff time.

To me the latter is much used as a shamer rather than being an actual risk/issue. The former is very important - and until we know enough about its transmission then it’s important to follow the guidelines.

With all these things there’s also an element of playing to the lowest common denominator too - a rule that’s simple enough but effective enough to stop knobheads gathering together in a park for a BBQ etc.. or having a house party.

Derbyshire police seem to be getting quite a lot of stick from several chief constables for both the drone film and the due in the blue lagoon stunt. The patchy response nationwide from the police doesn’t help either - some forces doing little Yet Lancs police dishing out 120 fixed pens in a day...

[Johnny Brown]

This is RSPB Dove Stone, after the lockdown, and after they'd closed the carpar

Umm, again I don't agree. Do you know Uppermill etc at all? The majority of those people will be local and it looks busy because they've closed the bloody car park! And again, it's less busy than the likes of Endcliffe park, on which similar pressure would be eased.

Very easy to issue sensible guidelines of ten minutes drive or similar.

Can I walk to my local shithole, which nobody ever bothers with, less than a mile from my house, and do some non-highball bouldering?

Entirely up to you. Nothing against it in the legislation. I did that on Sunday (well one pull-up, in gloves and trainers).

[User deactivated.]

Can I walk to my local shithole, which nobody ever bothers with, less than a mile from my house, and do some non-highball bouldering?

If this was a possibility for me I'd be doing it and keeping it quiet. Those of us lucky enough to have a board (I definitely stretched the rules to acquire all the materials and get this built last week) are already risking injury to a small degree. Same for people going running. 

[mrjonathanr]

  Those people can feel free to report me to the Police because when I went for my run last week I actually stopped to do some stretching and I also walked some of the way.

Waiting for a crime number as I type... It’s like tins of baked beans Will, you can have 2, but I am afraid you’ll have to put the 3rd one back.

[Duma]

Re the whole sitting in the park thing, I think that's pretty harsh IF you're on your own or with your household. There's a lot of people in cities with no outside space at all and that makes a huge difference. The restrictions ask a LOT more of those in flats than those with gardens. And we don't typically have balconies like the Mediterranean countries.

[duncan]

I thought this was a good summary of the known knowns and known unknowns from virologist Janet Greatorex. 

Relevant to the immediate discussion she talks about the effects of different mitigation strategies in their pandemic model.

Julia Gog is a mathematician in Cambridge who did a lot of studies post-swine flu and then recently did one called Pandemic, which looked at people’s daily movements and the effects on the spread of the virus. They mathematically modelled all the data post-swine flu and looked at all the mitigations you could put in place, like closing schools and stopping sports events and making people work from home.

All of them had relatively small effects. The one thing that seemed to have a massive effect was stopping travel and saying to people you must stay home. But that is the hardest one to bring in and it has massive other consequences. We have done so much work on this since swine flu. They are not the same but you can draw a lot of similarities looking at the best approach..

[spidermonkey09]

Umm, again I don't agree. Do you know Uppermill etc at all? The majority of those people will be local and it looks busy because they've closed the bloody car park! And again, it's less busy than the likes of Endcliffe park, on which similar pressure would be eased.

Very easy so issue sensible guidelines of ten minutes drive or similar.

I may not know the area, but that looks pretty busy to me. Approx 30 cars in that photo, which is approx 3/4 of the car park capacity I reckon?

I agree its very easy to issue the guidelines; not to easy to ensure people actually follow them! You think people on the east side of Sheffield wouldn't drive to the Peak with that guideline in place?

[Johnny Brown]

You think people on the east side of Sheffield wouldn't drive to the Peak with that guideline in place?

Absolutely. If I didn't have that sort of faith in humanity I wouldn't be able to do my job. Likewise much of the access work for the BMC is predicated on being able to get that sort of message out and working.

I guess Pete is right, this comes down to how much you think people need policing.

[tomtom]

If its dovestones JB is talking about its c.200 car park capacity.

[Stu Littlefair]

This is RSPB Dove Stone, after the lockdown, and after they'd closed the carpar

Umm, again I don't agree. Do you know Uppermill etc at all? The majority of those people will be local and it looks busy because they've closed the bloody car park!

Well neither of us actually know if they're local so maybe neither of us should be so confident making assertions. My point is not that this particular photo is an illustration of an issue. Obviously neither is it a major problem if you drive out for an evening boulder and you are the only one doing it.

My point is, and has always been, that trying to suggest that no-one drives out to the countryside is the only way to stop everyone from doing so. I know you think otherwise, but (with respect), you are definitely putting too much faith in people. Two weekends ago, the government advice was not to go out if you didn't absolutely have to. And yet the national parks were rammed with people having a jolly in the Sun. Once everyone is going out then we do have a transmission problem.

I don't see how saying "only drive ten minutes" is going to help. Already, most advice (but not the wording of the regs) is not to drive out at all, but you've still got plenty of people thinking "bugger it. I don't see the harm". Thankfully at the moment, most people aren't actually doing it, but plenty are tempted and looking for an excuse/reason.

Anyway, keeping going over this ground isn't doing my mental health any good, so I'm going to try and avoid the temptation to get drawn back in on this topic. Sorry; hopefully things will be a lot clearer in a fortnight and we'll know better what measures are really necessary or not.