[petejh]

there are two things that the PM can never instruct, one being something illegal, the second being something unsafe.

Neither of which apply when the Government guidance is that construction sites can remain open if social distancing is carried out. The simple fact is that if businesses are debating whether to stay open or not they're highly likely to come down on the side of staying open unless forced to close either by HMG or public pressure as with Sports Direct this morning.

This is pretty much what I was trying to say (and failing), in that if you follow the hierarchy of the legislation (HSAW, The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations, PPE etc.), you simply can't comply with what the government is saying (you won't be able to justify it on a risk assessment):
https://www.building.co.uk/news/site-shutdowns-prompted-by-health-and-safety-legislation-lawyer-says/5105225.article?fbclid=IwAR03ESx4TDnVXWO5BRnJASvDUFGMjG5kQTeqWN4atwuaga8ZnOjsniXWR3M

This was my situation yesterday when I called a client. I was hoping they were going to say they didn't want the project starting next week. Instead they were talking to me as if nothing was wrong, and actually wondered why I hadn't got started already! So I made sure I could get my guys' pay Furloughed then I emailed the client back later yesterday and told them we couldn't go ahead with the project work due to the risk from covid-related stuff. It's fucking ridiculous how blind and reckless some clients and employers are being about it, while others have been sensible.

[Nigel]

there are two things that the PM can never instruct, one being something illegal, the second being something unsafe.

Neither of which apply when the Government guidance is that construction sites can remain open if social distancing is carried out. The simple fact is that if businesses are debating whether to stay open or not they're highly likely to come down on the side of staying open unless forced to close either by HMG or public pressure as with Sports Direct this morning.

This is pretty much what I was trying to say (and failing), in that if you follow the hierarchy of the legislation (HSAW, The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations, PPE etc.), you simply can't comply with what the government is saying (you won't be able to justify it on a risk assessment):
https://www.building.co.uk/news/site-shutdowns-prompted-by-health-and-safety-legislation-lawyer-says/5105225.article?fbclid=IwAR03ESx4TDnVXWO5BRnJASvDUFGMjG5kQTeqWN4atwuaga8ZnOjsniXWR3M

This was my situation yesterday when I called a client. I was hoping they were going to say they didn't want the project starting next week. Instead they were talking to me as if nothing was wrong, and actually wondered why I hadn't got started already! So I made sure I could get my guys' pay Furloughed then I emailed the client back later yesterday and told them we couldn't go ahead with the project work due to the risk from covid-related stuff. It's fucking ridiculous how blind and reckless some clients and employers are being about it, while others have been sensible.

I think you're quite right to do this pete, and paul b in your assessment. I used to be a rope access project manager, and in risk assessment terms even if you travel separately, keep 2m, have dedicated personal kit, wear all ppe, and ensure all welfare facilities are wiped down after each use (ps how likely is that in reality?), then you still have rescues. It might be a rare occurence and you could rig for rescue if applicable and put new gloves by the rigging but it starts to raise questions about whether its all worth it....

Government advice of keep 2m and its fine ignores all the other points above (and there will be others). I can easily see how most contractors would rightly be more worried by their responsibilities under hasw act if they take risk assessment seriously. Large sites with shared welfare can't function safely imho.

Notwithstanding that I would have expected the government to have requisitioned all main contractor's stocks of ppe already making the above moot. The fact they haven't seems bizarre given their other actions and lack of ppe for the nhs!

[SA Chris]

Surely Employers have a duty of care for Employees? HSE would be all over you if there was an issue with faulty PPE or procedures not being followed, why would they accept a potential risk of exposure to a potentially fatal does of a virus any more than being exposed to a potentially fatal dose of radiation or poisonous gas? I expect lawyers would say the same, and I stand corrected by Ru or the like, but if it can be demonstrated the Employer was negligent there is no insurance or limit of liability to save you and, I think, your client.

[petejh]

I agree, and this is the justification I gave to my client who wanted to proceed with project work next week:

- It is not possible for team members to stay 2 metres apart while carrying out the ### works.
- Sharing company works vehicles would be unavoidable.
- Carrying out the works introduces increased risk of spreading the virus, for e.g. among other site personnel, local food retailers (lunch breaks).
- In the unlikely event of any accident, provision of emergency medical services is likely to be delayed due to the emergency health service being overstretched with virus patients.
- While likelihood of any accident is very low, carrying out the ### works creates an unnecessary increased risk of placing a demand on the emergency health service at a time they will be overstretched.
- Labour resources are likely to be disrupted, due to illness and some workers not feeling safe to go to work.

[Andy B]

....I used to be a rope access project manager, and in risk assessment terms even if you travel separately, keep 2m, have dedicated personal kit, wear all ppe, and ensure all welfare facilities are wiped down after each use (ps how likely is that in reality?), then you still have rescues. It might be a rare occurence and you could rig for rescue if applicable and put new gloves by the rigging but it starts to raise questions about whether its all worth it....

I don’t remember you ever providing welfare facilities Nige. 

[Nigel]

....I used to be a rope access project manager, and in risk assessment terms even if you travel separately, keep 2m, have dedicated personal kit, wear all ppe, and ensure all welfare facilities are wiped down after each use (ps how likely is that in reality?), then you still have rescues. It might be a rare occurence and you could rig for rescue if applicable and put new gloves by the rigging but it starts to raise questions about whether its all worth it....

I don’t remember you ever providing welfare facilities Nige. 

That's what woods are for

[ali k]

there are two things that the PM can never instruct, one being something illegal, the second being something unsafe.

This is pretty much what I was trying to say (and failing), in that if you follow the hierarchy of the legislation (HSAW, The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations, PPE etc.), you simply can't comply with what the government is saying (you won't be able to justify it on a risk assessment)

Yeh, I get what you were saying and I totally agree. The first course of action for these sites (and any non-essential business) should be to shut down as soon as practical. Then only re-open once they've carried out a new risk assessment and can prove they'd be able to comply. Which most wouldn't. But unfortunately a lot have attempted to hide behind the mixed messages from the government and continue with business as usual for as long as they can get away with it.

[TobyD]

I'm really hoping that everyone stays out of the Peak District this weekend. I don't care how built up it is wherever they live, it's just not within the law to drive into a national park for a bit of a jolly and lounge around having a picnic. That in no way constitutes exercise whilst minimising time out of the house.
Incidentally I'm not implying that anyone who posts on here is that stupid but sadly it appears that some are. Been at work in the peak this week, and on this weekend, noticed a disappointing handful of cars at several popular places. Mainly walkers I think, not actually seen any climbers out, fortunately.

[Drew]

I'm really hoping that everyone stays out of the Peak District this weekend. I don't care how built up it is wherever they live, it's just not within the law to drive into a national park for a bit of a jolly and lounge around having a picnic. That in no way constitutes exercise whilst minimising time out of the house.

I can definitely understand why people are still heading out even though we're under restrictions. I've just been told I'm getting furloughed next week, and I'm having to consciously remind myself I can't just take my daughter for a walk in the Peak whenever I need to burn off her excess energy. I can't just "nip to Burbage for an hour of bimbling". I can't just pop to my mates house for a brew. It feels like gardening leave.

[SamT]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-52055201

Mixed messages again, with the police being criticised by David Gauke. So is he saying its OK to drive out to Curbar for a walk, or isn't it??

I think most on here think it isn't, and I agree.

[Coops_13]

The message here in Colorado is you can exercise outside in your local area including state parks but you can’t drive to an area to exercise. Seems clearer here but still open to interpretation as to what’s “your area” I suppose

[T_B]

To be fair we took the kids down the park yesterday mid-afternoon and it was really quiet. I guess most people walk dogs in the morning and evening. I appreciate that I live in suburbia where everyone has gardens and we have woods nearby, so this won’t be representative. Just saying not all parks are rammed.

[mrjonathanr]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-52055201

Mixed messages again, with the police being criticised by David Gauke. So is he saying its OK to drive out to Curbar for a walk, or isn't it??

I think most on here think it isn't, and I agree.

The official guideline is this:

Following on from the government’s guidance on social distancing in relation to COVID-19, people should avoid travelling unless it is essential.

He appears to be saying the police are wrong to enforce. Like you, I think people should not be travelling. The problem is the lack of clarity in the government’s communication. What exactly do they mean by ’travelling’?

[Bradders]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-52055201

Mixed messages again, with the police being criticised by David Gauke. So is he saying its OK to drive out to Curbar for a walk, or isn't it??

I think most on here think it isn't, and I agree.

Seems more like Big Brother Watch having a go here. Normally I have a fair amount of sympathy for their views, however it doesn't seem like the right time for sticking to a dogmatic position on personal liberties when people are dying.

[sdm]

To be fair we took the kids down the park yesterday mid-afternoon and it was really quiet. I guess most people walk dogs in the morning and evening. I appreciate that I live in suburbia where everyone has gardens and we have woods nearby, so this won’t be representative. Just saying not all parks are rammed.

I have generally been running or walking around the local park early in the morning before work. There's a few dog walkers and runners at that time but the park is huge so easy to keep big distances apart and people have mostly been sensible.

There aren't many open spaces around here and a lot of people have no gardens or very small ones.

Yesterday, I went for a walk at sunset instead. Quite a few children on the play equipment (no signs or tape to tell people not to). Plenty of people doing pullups on the climbing frames and monkey bars, including a group of 8 doing a full circuit using various play equipment (I suspect they may have been a large family). I did see one guy wipe down a bar before he started. The police had to break up a 10 person game of basketball.

If yesterday evening is anything to go by, full lockdown must only be a matter of time.

The authorities haven't helped, there are small signs at the each entrance to the park telling people to keep 2m apart and they have removed the crossbars from all the goal posts. But nothing at any of the play equipment, the basketball courts or the tennis courts.

[Johnny Brown]

Some SCIENCE for y'all just in:

https://quillette.com/2020/03/27/covid-19-science-update-for-march-27-super-spreaders-and-the-need-for-new-prediction-models/

TL:dr; infection rates fall to almost zero in open spaces. High infection rates indoors. So better to be out of doors as much as possible. obviously avoiding touching gates etc. Zero scientific basis for police closing burbage bridge etc.

I'm really hoping that everyone stays out of the Peak District this weekend. I don't care how built up it is wherever they live, it's just not within the law to drive into a national park for a bit of a jolly and lounge around having a picnic. That in no way constitutes exercise whilst minimising time out of the house.
Incidentally I'm not implying that anyone who posts on here is that stupid but sadly it appears that some are. Been at work in the peak this week, and on this weekend, noticed a disappointing handful of cars at several popular places. Mainly walkers I think, not actually seen any climbers out, fortunately.

So this, I'm afraid isn't being borne out by the science. The 'bit of a jolly' is telling. WTF is wrong with taking my wife and child out for a picnic at Burbage? 3 miles by car. There seems to be an idea that we must sit at home wringing our hands because people are dying. We are in this for the long haul and strategies need to reflect the impact on mental and physical health. The nation will be in much better shape if we dont continue this knee-jerk jumping on people travelling short distances to enjoy long periods of time out of doors. Have forwarded to Derbys Police also.

[T_B]

Some SCIENCE for y'all just in:

https://quillette.com/2020/03/27/covid-19-science-update-for-march-27-super-spreaders-and-the-need-for-new-prediction-models/

TL:dr; infection rates fall to almost zero in open spaces. High infection rates indoors. So better to be out of doors as much as possible. obviously avoiding touching gates etc. Zero scientific basis for police closing burbage bridge etc.

WTF is wrong with taking my wife and child out for a picnic at Burbage? 3 miles by car.

Because at the moment hardly anyone is working. If the Peak was ‘open’ half of Sheffield and Manchester would be out there with their portable BBQs. It will be like a Bankie every day of the week.

Until they work out a way to ‘police’ the countryside (lots of Park Rangers Yosemite stylee) I can see why the easiest option is just to shut it.

Or, it’s just open to those lucky enough to live in it or 3 miles away. What about the mental health of those who live 4 miles away?

[205Chris]

So this, I'm afraid isn't being borne out by the science. The 'bit of a jolly' is telling. WTF is wrong with taking my wife and child out for a picnic at Burbage? 3 miles by car. There seems to be an idea that we must sit at home wringing our hands because people are dying. We are in this for the long haul and strategies need to reflect the impact on mental and physical health. The nation will be in much better shape if we dont continue this knee-jerk jumping on people travelling short distances to enjoy long periods of time out of doors. Have forwarded to Derbys Police also.

Agree but the problem is where do you draw the line? A 3 mile jaunt with your family might be fine. Can I drive 4,5,6,10 or 20 miles to get to an open space? Can I Mountain Bike when I get there? Can I climb? Can I drive 200 miles across the Country to walk up Snowdon stopping at Motorway services en route? etc.

As Toby said, official gov.uk advice is to minimise time out the house and it's difficult to argue that driving somewhere for exercise meets this criteria.

It would be easy to say 'exercise is permitted outdoors but apply some common sense' because if we've seen one thing over the last week or two it's that common sense is sadly lacking in a percentage of the population.

[T_B]

Btw I don’t for a minute think we’ll be through this in a couple of months. It will be interesting to see what solutions allow us to get out in the countryside in the medium-long term. I’m thinking of places in the US like Heuco.

[Oldmanmatt]

Some SCIENCE for y'all just in:

https://quillette.com/2020/03/27/covid-19-science-update-for-march-27-super-spreaders-and-the-need-for-new-prediction-models/

TL:dr; infection rates fall to almost zero in open spaces. High infection rates indoors. So better to be out of doors as much as possible. obviously avoiding touching gates etc. Zero scientific basis for police closing burbage bridge etc.

I'm really hoping that everyone stays out of the Peak District this weekend. I don't care how built up it is wherever they live, it's just not within the law to drive into a national park for a bit of a jolly and lounge around having a picnic. That in no way constitutes exercise whilst minimising time out of the house.
Incidentally I'm not implying that anyone who posts on here is that stupid but sadly it appears that some are. Been at work in the peak this week, and on this weekend, noticed a disappointing handful of cars at several popular places. Mainly walkers I think, not actually seen any climbers out, fortunately.

So this, I'm afraid isn't being borne out by the science. The 'bit of a jolly' is telling. WTF is wrong with taking my wife and child out for a picnic at Burbage? 3 miles by car. There seems to be an idea that we must sit at home wringing our hands because people are dying. We are in this for the long haul and strategies need to reflect the impact on mental and physical health. The nation will be in much better shape if we dont continue this knee-jerk jumping on people travelling short distances to enjoy long periods of time out of doors. Have forwarded to Derbys Police also.

Well...

You took from that, what you wanted to take from that.

Parks are still open, because everyone is already aware that open spaces are not high risk (with the touching surfaces caveat).

It is the inter community traveling that the bans are trying to address. Closure of the remote parks, is not about people using the park, it’s about discouraging people from making unnecessary journeys, with all the inherent contact risks of such.

Quick addendum:
I understand that “some people” think this is all a”one shot wonder” and we close down once and it’s all over. Those people hear 6-12 months (or what ever) and think we’ll be locked in our houses for that period.
Fairly sure nobody commenting here believes that.
We’ll be locked down now, as long as it takes to slow the growth to a manageable rate. Then they’ll ease restrictions until the growth begins to take off again. Manageable growth, will be different in phase 2. Better preparations will have been made. More infected coped with.
The lockdown will return if growth exceeds capability again.

Rinse and repeat.

Pete nailed that in the first couple of pages.

Until a vaccine and/or reliable treatment protocol arrive, those who would die or become critically ill, will do so, regardless of our actions. The only thing we can do, is slow that rate of infection.

[kac]

The problem is that if you look at it in terms of whats wong with 'me' going to burbage for a picnic the answer is of course very little. Replace me with 'everyone who wants to' and its somewhat different. If you live 3 miles from burbage I'm finding it hard to believe there wont be nice picnic and walking spots accessible without driving.

[Ru]

We’ll be locked down now, as long as it takes to slow the growth to a manageable rate. Then they’ll ease restrictions until the growth begins to take off again. Manageable growth, will be different in phase 2. Better preparations will have been made. More infected coped with.

The lockdown will return if growth exceeds capability again.

Rinse and repeat.

I don't think we will tbh. I think we'll lock down once, maybe twice, then then prevailing mindset will become, "well we had a go," and appetite for further lockdowns will disappear. Not saying that's good, or effective, or prudent, it's just my Trump-esque gut feeling for where this is headed.

[Stabbsy]

TL:dr; infection rates fall to almost zero in open spaces. High infection rates indoors. So better to be out of doors as much as possible. obviously avoiding touching gates etc. Zero scientific basis for police closing burbage bridge etc.

It seems relatively obvious that infection rates would fall in open spaces versus enclosed rooms, but they fall even further under effective self-isolation in households because it's a dead-end. If people are given less option/incentive to go out, there's your scientific basis for closing things off.

Agree but the problem is where do you draw the line? A 3 mile jaunt with your family might be fine. Can I drive 4,5,6,10 or 20 miles to get to an open space? Can I Mountain Bike when I get there? Can I climb? Can I drive 200 miles across the Country to walk up Snowdon stopping at Motorway services en route? etc.

It would be easy to say 'exercise is permitted outdoors but apply some common sense' because if we've seen one thing over the last week or two it's that common sense is sadly lacking in a percentage of the population.

Totally agree with this. I can (and regularly do) run to Burbage, Stanage, Redmires from my door. Last weekend (7 days into self-isolation), I decided I would. Started off quiet, but Stanage was rammed. The majority of those people had probably only driven a few miles to get there, but when you have such areas that close to areas of high population density, saying a 5-mile drive maximum encompasses a lot of people, even if everyone follows those rules and don't drive further. Managed to find a way back home following wide paths where you could avoid people or open moorland paths where no-one goes. Made me realise that even though I'm following the letter of the law, I'm also part of the problem unless I make a sacrifice too. Since then, I've self imposed a 2km radius around the house for my runs and I feel much better about it.

It would be great if we could ask people to apply common sense, but it's fairly clear that a significant proportion are either selfish/can't be trusted or just f**king stupid. There's been people using the roads round the Porter/Mayfield valleys like a racetrack because it's quiet, groups of road bikers clearly not from the same household, groups of old folk all out with their dogs together.

Slightly OT, but on the subject of common sense, it's not just exercise where we can't be trusted. Today is our last day of self isolation and I get to go and replenish our seriously depleted food cupboards, probably from a limited selection on the shelves. Day 1 of self isolation, way before this all started ramping up, I tried to get a home shopping delivery and everything was booked up for 3 weeks. Given that I've never failed to get a delivery within 2 days before now, I'd put money on the fact that most of those people could have made it to a store. We've just about got by with family helping out and the local veg shop delivering stuff for us, but there's others who need those delivery slots more.

So yes, it's a sacrifice but it's one we should all be making. My wife and my sister both work in the NHS and are both frontline in this and to put it frankly, I'm scared for both of them. My parents and mother/father-in-law are in their 70s and won't get to see their granddaughter for 3 months minimum. It's far more important than squabbling over whether we get to go for a picnic or not.

[Oldmanmatt]

We’ll be locked down now, as long as it takes to slow the growth to a manageable rate. Then they’ll ease restrictions until the growth begins to take off again. Manageable growth, will be different in phase 2. Better preparations will have been made. More infected coped with.

The lockdown will return if growth exceeds capability again.

Rinse and repeat.

I don't think we will tbh. I think we'll lock down once, maybe twice, then then prevailing mindset will become, "well we had a go," and appetite for further lockdowns will disappear. Not saying that's good, or effective, or prudent, it's just my Trump-esque gut feeling for where this is headed.

It will, I expect, depend on our capacity to absorb the critically ill, rather than sentiment.

I think that will increase, over time. Possibly, that’s already factored into the NHS Nightingale strategy.

I suspect society has a high capacity to accept losses, where there is dignity in death.
Too many dying uncared for? Not “trying our best” etc, would overcome the fatigue of lockdowns.

We’re going to find out.

Unfortunately.

[Offwidth]

China and Korea are not seeing huge second waves. We need to wait and see in the UK but the main lockdown might still be enough, if we come out of this with a ready and vigilant health system.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/south-korea/
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china/

Japan and Hong Kong will be worth watching as they exoect an upturn

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1096478/japan-confirmed-cases-of-coronavirus-by-state-of-health/

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china-hong-kong-sar/