[ali k]

I can understand this behaviour is infuriating to us, and we maybe expect better from climbers for some reason(?)

But from my work WhatsApp chat group the general feeling seems to be confusion and frustration that fun things in the evenings and weekends (potentially outside in the fresh air) are now banned. But it’s still ok to go into work in enclosed spaces, unavoidably mixing with many other people.

People can’t be expected to make sensible choices in their free time when at work the advice seems completely counterintuitive to the general government guidance.

[TobyD]

I can understand this behaviour is infuriating to us, and we maybe expect better from climbers for some reason(?)
 But it’s still ok to go into work in enclosed spaces, unavoidably mixing with many other people.

People can’t be expected to make sensible choices in their free time when at work the advice seems completely counterintuitive to the general government guidance.

I disagree,  is there no way you can WFH? Or rota office attendance?

[ali k]

Toby - I do work from home generally in normal times. And always now. Face to face meetings have switched to Skype or Teams.

But I’m referring to the site operatives. The construction sites remain open. Clients still expect work to be carried out. And the work involves travelling often to multiple sites in a day. So as i said upthread the CEO emailed last night to say site workers would continue to attend site. And no update this morning other than the government confirming that construction sites stay open...

[T_B]

Thoughts on 2.5 hour runs being posted on Strava this morning? Feels like the running world needs to get its act together. I’m as much a runner as a climber thesedays and I can’t see how long runs could be considered “staying at home”. I’ll be doing short local runs and focusing on strength work.

Personally I think there’s a strong argument for Strava to be suspended (as UKC suspended the logging of routes) though I can see the argument against this.

[TobyD]

Toby - I do work from home generally in normal times. And always now. Face to face meetings have switched to Skype or Teams.

But I’m referring to the site operatives. The construction sites remain open. Clients still expect work to be carried out. And the work involves travelling often to multiple sites in a day. So as i said upthread the CEO emailed last night to say site workers would continue to attend site. And no update this morning other than the government confirming that construction sites stay open...

Ah I see. Difficult, unless the government just says stop doing anything.

[petejh]

Number 10 tweeted an Emergency Covid-19 Alert last night stating:

“The only reasons you may leave home - To go to work (if you’re a key worker)”

And then deleted it and changed it to:

“The only reasons you may leave home - To go to work (but work from home if possible)”

No wonder they’re causing so much confusion.

This ^^^^

Our tester sent us a screen grab of the 'key worker' version.  I however, could not find it anywhere on the gov website last night. only the 'essential work' version.   So we were flummoxed as to what to do.  Didn't sleep well. 

But at 3am, (yes 3am) he texted a tweet from Robert Jenrick - Sec. of State for Housing .
that categorically says if working on site, continue to do so.

https://twitter.com/RobertJenrick/status/1242210351007096836?s=20

Then on This morning,  Gove announced in interview that construction industry is to continue.

So put me at ease a little bit that we're not flying in the face of the lockdown.  (At the same time, acutely aware that it's not necessarily the 'right' thing to be doing).

But, like nearly everyone in any business, we're going to keep going till categorically told to stop.  Our guy seems relatively happy to continue, as far as I can tell, and he'd fully decked with gloves, sanitiser, wipes etc and we're confident that he can keep himself to himself on site.

I understand this view, and I'm in a similar position at them moment. But the situation doesn't sit right with me. (I'm not being critical of you personally SamT)

You can use language to make the decisions more palatable - for e.g. 'like nearly everyone in any business, we're going to keep going till categorically told to stop.'

'like nearly everyone' - this is an appeal to popularity. Or a bandwagon fallacy. Everyone could be jumping off cliffs, is that a reason to jump off cliffs?

'in any business' -  business in and of itself is no justification for anything. The reality of continuing 'business' during a pandemic is that your business now also carries with it the inevitable side-effect of contributing in a small way to spreading an infection to which we have no immunity or vaccine. The net result (highly unlikely to be attributable to any individual) is there will be more infection in this busy period than there otherwise would, and thus an x% chance of increased excess deaths.

'until categorically told to stop' - appeal to authority. The rule doesn't outlaw it so it is acceptable to do. If the rule didn't categorically tell you not to jump off cliffs, would you jump off cliffs?

'Our guy seems relatively happy to continue' - appeal to others / deferment of responsibility.  If your guy seemed 'relatively happy' to jump off cliffs would you send him?


Not criticising, just using your post as an example but could use my own or others. I'm about to leave to go to the office to carry out what I consider in a fuzzy logic way are probably necessary tasks of sorting out payroll issues and who's going to get paid what. But I'm still being asked to carry out jobs by clients that I can clearly see are not necessary and which in their small way will spread infections more than if we didn't do them. But the work will keep 4 self-employed guys and 2 employees in good money for 3+ months when they might otherwise go without.. Grappling with what I'm going to do about it, might tell the client I think they should postpone.

I think one thing this disaster shows in stark relief (but which is always true) is that there will always be reasons to not choose the ideal option.

[TobyD]

Thoughts on 2.5 hour runs being posted on Strava this morning? Feels like the running world needs to get its act together. I’m as much a runner as a climber thesedays and I can’t see how long runs could be considered “staying at home”.

Indeed not. If people keep pushing it, we'll be heading for government banning exercise of any kind.
I think they should consider massively increasing the potential fines, and empower police to impound people's vehicles if they're breaking the rules blatantly.

[T_B]

I agree. I don’t know the guy but he’s in my club and I posted as much. His argument is he was less likely to come into contact with others than on a short, local run. Which might make sense to an extent but it just sends out the message to “carry on as normal”. I need to start researching dreadmills  at this rate 😡

[monkey boy]

I agree. I don’t know the guy but he’s in my club and I posted as much. His argument is he was less likely to come into contact with others than on a short, local run. Which might make sense to an extent but it just sends out the message to “carry on as normal”. I need to start researching dreadmills  at this rate 😡

I felt like him a little, and you will come in to contact with less people but I agree with it sending the wrong message.

[tomtom]

Simple:

https://placestovisitthisweekend.com/

[monkey boy]

Simple:

https://placestovisitthisweekend.com/

Saw that yesterday. Enjoyed it a lot

[sdm]

Thoughts on 2.5 hour runs being posted on Strava this morning? Feels like the running world needs to get its act together. I’m as much a runner as a climber thesedays and I can’t see how long runs could be considered “staying at home”. I’ll be doing short local runs and focusing on strength work.

Personally I think there’s a strong argument for Strava to be suspended (as UKC suspended the logging of routes) though I can see the argument against this.

It surely wouldn't be hard to limit runs to a certain time or distance? Go over whatever that distance is, and it gets nulled.

Similarly, if you record a run in the morning, then record a second run in the afternoon and a third in the evening, it nulls them all and emails you a strongly worded instruction to stop being so selfish.

That said, how much riskier is a longer run? The only difference I can think of is a slightly higher risk of having a heart attack etc.

My parents live in a village that isn't at all remote. I could easily plot a 2.5 hour route from my parents' house where you would almost certainly see nobody, could maintain 50+ metres from other people at all times and yet would never be further than a couple of hundred metres of flat ground from a road and/or houses.

[T_B]

I agree. I don’t know the guy but he’s in my club and I posted as much. His argument is he was less likely to come into contact with others than on a short, local run. Which might make sense to an extent but it just sends out the message to “carry on as normal”. I need to start researching dreadmills  at this rate 😡

I felt like him a little, and you will come in to contact with less people but I agree with it sending the wrong message.

Which is where we were last week, hence why I went out on Kinder on Sunday accepting that would be it for the foreseeable.

Anyway, I think it’s pretty unambiguous here with the key word being *minimising*:

1. STAYING AT HOME
You should only leave the house for one of four reasons.
● Shopping for basic necessities​, for example food and medicine, which must be as infrequent as possible.
● One form of exercise a day, for example a run, walk, or cycle - alone or with members of your household.
● Any medical need​, or to provide care or to help a vulnerable person.
● Travelling to and from work​, but only where this absolutely cannot be done from home.

These four reasons are exceptions - even when doing these activities, you should be minimising time spent
outside of the home and ensuring you are 2 metres apart from anyone outside of your household.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/874742/Full_guidance_on_staying_at_home_and_away_from_others__1_.pdf

[SamT]

I understand this view, and I'm in a similar position at them moment. But the situation doesn't sit right with me. (I'm not being critical of you personally SamT)

No criticism taken.  As I say, I'm acutely aware of the implications and ramifications.  But I'm not the sole person in the business, and we're all trying to juggle/grapple with it best we can.

Just had word that a site in Egremont (yes bloody Egremont) has shut so we dont have to go there now.  Assuming a lot of the big sites will be following suit which is both a relief and a worry.

[tim palmer]

On my way to work this morning I saw someone pulling up to caley with pads in the car.  Argh 

[Paul B]

Personally I think there’s a strong argument for Strava to be suspended (as UKC suspended the logging of routes) though I can see the argument against this.

Are you aware of the likes of Zwift (and other things such as Trainerroad, Sufferfest etc.)? There are a huge number of people now riding and racing on a virtual platform/world (Watopia) that uses Strava as a means to record. Many people will be using such systems to avoid going out.

I think perhaps it's good idea to make Strava private for anyone doing exercise. People stuck in less good places or who are unable to exercise directly from home aren't going to want to see it rubbed in their faces.

Out of interest how far does someone go on that length of run? I'm just trying to think of the equivalence on a bike with respect to when I next exercise.

[SA Chris]

I could easily "get away with" going climbing. I can stash a pad and shoes in a cave, and work on a low level traverse / link that's about a 10 minute run from the house. I can run out the house, through the coastal park, and disappear over the edge of the field and down to the boulders.

I've decided I won't though. Even though risk is low, there is still a risk, and I need to do what I've been asked to do. I won't enjoy being there as I feel to me it's morally wrong, will be overly nervous, and feel uncomfortable doing so.

Which is fortunately OK, I like running anyway, and I can take the kids out with me for a shorter run, before carrying on on my own for a bit longer.

I'm not preaching to anyone, or saying don't, just make your own choices and be sensible.

[tomtom]

On my way to work this morning I saw someone pulling up to caley with pads in the car.  Argh 

That’s worthy of a wind the window down and bellow GO HOME...

Ffs 🤦‍♂️ etc...

[SA Chris]

Out of interest how far does someone go on that length of run? I'm just trying to think of the equivalence on a bike with respect to when I next exercise.

I'm doing half an hour to 45 minutes. I've now changed from my favourite route, as when I did it yesterday I stupidly forgot there are 3 farm gates with walker's gates to the side. I opted to climb over the far side of the farm gate, and used hands as little as possible.

[Plattsy]

I can't run at the moment. So walking. How far is too far?

One person's walk is another person's stroll in the park.

[spidermonkey09]

I'm not preaching to anyone, or saying don't, just make your own choices and be sensible.

I am. People should very clearly not be climbing now. My position has evolved like everyone elses, but anyone continuing to climb now while everyone else is sacrificing the things they love is a selfish twat.

[Oldmanmatt]

I can't run at the moment. So walking. How far is too far?

One person's walk is another person's stroll in the park.

Are you one of the Proclaimers?

No?


Not 500 miles then.

[TobyD]

I'm not preaching to anyone, or saying don't, just make your own choices and be sensible.

I am. People should very clearly not be climbing now. My position has evolved like everyone elses, but anyone continuing to climb now while everyone else is sacrificing the things they love is a selfish twat.

Amen to that. When will people get the message, it's not for them personally, it's for everyone. If everyone thinks 'o surely it's ok if I just....' we're all fucked.

[Plattsy]

I can't run at the moment. So walking. How far is too far?

One person's walk is another person's stroll in the park.

Are you one of the Proclaimers?

No?


Not 500 miles then.

Not from Miami to Canada then?

[T_B]

Out of interest how far does someone go on that length of run? I'm just trying to think of the equivalence on a bike with respect to when I next exercise.

32Km