[Fultonius]

Messaging is still clear as mud.

Totally agree.

I run an experimental wind turbine that get used for research and development, but also generates electricity for the grid and helps us tackle climate change. If our projects go back a year, that could delay crucial progress that might save a lot more lives through reducing climate change. But how the hell do you weight those things up? We're currently prioritising essential maintenance, but what about essential projects? If we find some new tech or control theory that improves wind farm output by 5%, is that worth the risk?

[Oldmanmatt]

Messaging is still clear as mud.

Totally agree.

I run an experimental wind turbine that get used for research and development, but also generates electricity for the grid and helps us tackle climate change. If our projects go back a year, that could delay crucial progress that might save a lot more lives through reducing climate change. But how the hell do you weight those things up? We're currently prioritising essential maintenance, but what about essential projects? If we find some new tech or control theory that improves wind farm output by 5%, is that worth the risk?

Pretty sure that’s not going to be seen by “them” as essential.

If it was vaccine research...

[ali k]

I should add, many of the site guys in the company attend multiple construction sites a day (which are still open) travelling up and down the country. They are the perfect vectors for virus dispersal.

And that is one of thousands of similar businesses which will still remain open until they’re specifically told to stop.

[Fultonius]

We've blocked all visits, so it's only our guys going on site. Considering additional PPE. I think we'll all be feet up on 80% soon enough...

[abarro81]

It's well confusing. We read it as only travel which is essential to your work. Confusing as hell.

The list of open shops is on bbc, includes hardware, vets, pet stores, banks, post office etc. Not clear for other jobs eg plumbers, builders etc, presumably because some of their work is essential and some isn't, and the gov doesn't want to have to try to define that??

[Oldmanmatt]

Police cars touring the streets here and Newton Abbot, with loud speakers, telling everyone to get in doors..

That’s a bit different,

Ooh.

[SamT]

I should add, many of the site guys in the company attend multiple construction sites a day (which are still open) travelling up and down the country. They are the perfect vectors for virus dispersal.

And that is one of thousands of similar businesses which will still remain open until they’re specifically told to stop.

I'm so torn.  We employ someone to drive around to building sites on a daily basis.  We're here there and everywhere.. but the work is quite solitary.  Easy to give the site manager a wave from a few meters away and disappear to the houses.

Thing is, as everyone alludes to, is that every working man woman and business is going to have their own interpretation of essential.

I've had to read/listen/try to understand Bojos announcement numerous times tonight.  He never said 'building sites' are to shut.  There needs to be a clear and concise definition/list of 'essential' work.

Our work us one of the last steps in getting a house signed off by building control. Its often high pressured, since it can hold up house sales etc.  There are 22 families in Bolton right now who don't know it, but were only able to move in last weekend, because we pulled out all the stops to test on Friday and get the houses handed over.

We've got similar sites this week, where there may well be all sorts of house sale chains held up, if people cant get mortgage/buy/move etc. 

The sites are desperate (not nearly strong enough word) to get their plots finished and handed over.

We've going to see how tomorrow goes, then at some point, I know we've going to have to call it and cancel the next 2 weeks work.  I know we're not alone in all this, but the construction industry is quite cut throat and the last thing we need is to drop clients right in the shit.

 

[remus]

While it is regrettable that a lot of people are going to interpret what's been said as broadly as possible so they can keep working it's pretty understandable. Large swaths of the population have no meaningful savings so no work means no money, and with no money how do you eat? Or pay the rent? Or put the heating on when it gets cold?

[petejh]

Two words can cover so much territory when you stop to model all the little things: 'probably impractical'.

(verdict on total lock-down from the SPI-M document) 

[TobyD]

the construction industry is quite cut throat and the last thing we need is to drop clients right in the shit.

If we find some new tech or control theory that improves wind farm output by 5%, is that worth the risk?

If the well informed interviewee (can't remember exactly who) on 5 live is right, then basically unless you're the NHS, essential current transport infrastructure or technology infrastructure or making stuff for either of the above, it's less important than limiting virus spread.

[Will Hunt]

To be fair to the government, the reason that they can't be more specific is that the types of work that go on in this country are so varied that they can't possibly sit down and go through it in the detail that people seem to want.
"You're a plumber so you can go and fix a burst at somebody's house if it's pissing water everywhere, but you can't go and fit a new bathroom, but maybe you can go and finish installing a new kitchen if it means they can cook food.
And now onto the carpenters..."

The stuff mentioned thus far sounds non-essential to me. The thing I have to grapple with is river water quality studies. We have sampling kit in rivers and sewers right now which needs to be maintained by two person teams. The contractor has a very few people who could go out in pairs to do this who live in the same household. The data that we collect drives studies which are required by our regulator (an arm of government). If we stop collecting useful data we will need, possibly, a sizeable extension to the delivery deadline of the studies, which in turn will affect the government's ability to write the next River Basin Management Plan within the legally required timeframe.

So if government won't grant an extension then that makes the work essential. But you're all going to tell me that it's not. The crux is that all our work sounds essential to us because we all care about it. The question we have to ask ourselves is whether we care about it more than somebody else's gran or vulnerable loved one. Because if I send out 4 people to move around the region maintaining monitors, then why shouldn't somebody else move around to maintain their wind turbines, or sign off their houses? Multiply by thousands upon thousands of business equals business as usual equals unnecessary death.

Speaking to contractors today, they sounded desperate. There's going to be a lot of pain ahead, but the instruction has come from the top. The very top. And it is the government's job to minimise that pain by supporting businesses so they can keep their staff in pay.

[Hoseyb]

I can pretty much see my boulder from my house, I could walk there in under 2 hours..

However, it is a privilege and a luxury to be in this position. The opposite of essential.

I'll go climbing when you lot do.

See you on the other side.

[SA Chris]

My work is non-essential, and about to be non-existent if the Saudis and Russians continue to play silly buggers.

[Fultonius]

To be fair to the government, the reason that they can't be more specific is that the types of work that go on in this country are so varied that they can't possibly sit down and go through it in the detail that people seem to want.
"You're a plumber so you can go and fix a burst at somebody's house if it's pissing water everywhere, but you can't go and fit a new bathroom, but maybe you can go and finish installing a new kitchen if it means they can cook food.
And now onto the carpenters..."

The stuff mentioned thus far sounds non-essential to me. The thing I have to grapple with is river water quality studies. We have sampling kit in rivers and sewers right now which needs to be maintained by two person teams. The contractor has a very few people who could go out in pairs to do this who live in the same household. The data that we collect drives studies which are required by our regulator (an arm of government). If we stop collecting useful data we will need, possibly, a sizeable extension to the delivery deadline of the studies, which in turn will affect the government's ability to write the next River Basin Management Plan within the legally required timeframe.

So if government won't grant an extension then that makes the work essential. But you're all going to tell me that it's not. The crux is that all our work sounds essential to us because we all care about it. The question we have to ask ourselves is whether we care about it more than somebody else's gran or vulnerable loved one. Because if I send out 4 people to move around the region maintaining monitors, then why shouldn't somebody else move around to maintain their wind turbines, or sign off their houses? Multiply by thousands upon thousands of business equals business as usual equals unnecessary death.

Speaking to contractors today, they sounded desperate. There's going to be a lot of pain ahead, but the instruction has come from the top. The very top. And it is the government's job to minimise that pain by supporting businesses so they can keep their staff in pay.

I guess working in pairs is based on a risk assessment against lone working (we have the same). You know have a 3-way toss up between:

• collective risk for society of doing/not doing the work
• collective risk of increasing the spead of COVID working in singles/pairs
• potential risk of doing the work alone

Will people die/suffer if you stop doing the work?

For us, realistically we could just shut down and it would barely make a difference. But, if each small wind farm makes the same call...it all adds up to a fairly major cut to power supplies. nightmare.

[petejh]

I agree with the principle of everything you said Will but unfortunately that isn't the reality. As other posters have said - unless the government stops some non-essential firms from operating, then they will continue operating. And as you point out the rules can't be anything except full of loopholes and reliant on following the spirit rather than the letter.
It *should* be a question of only doing what's essential to health and supporting the effort to deal with the covid virus. but it isn't. For some people and businesses it's still a question of what they can continue to justify under the broad banner of 'essential' for as long as possible until forced to stop.

On a positive note, it doesn't take 100% compliance to get transmissions down to a manageable level.

'probably impractical' but I hope I'mthe modellers are proved wrong.

[SA Chris]

Will, can they work together, but still maintain safe distance? Arrive in separate cars, keep 2 m apart??

[Will Hunt]

Sending people out on their own is out of the question. We would never consider it safe practice before Covid so I don't see why we should consider it safe during.

In theory they could probably maintain two metres if traveling in separate vehicles but if somebody needs assistance then that goes out the window. It's also pretty impractical.

Besides all that these people would inevitably touch stuff, breathe on other "essential" workers while out and about etc etc.

[SA Chris]

Fair enough, just thinking out loud.

[Fultonius]

Will, I guess my point was - what's considered "as low as reasonably practicable" during normal times, might be a different calculation now.

i.e.  If the work *is* essential, and lone working is *still* considered too high risk (reasonable), then maybe PPE and procedures can help?

[ali k]

Number 10 tweeted an Emergency Covid-19 Alert last night stating:

“The only reasons you may leave home - To go to work (if you’re a key worker)”

And then deleted it and changed it to:

“The only reasons you may leave home - To go to work (but work from home if possible)”

No wonder they’re causing so much confusion.

[monkey boy]

Driving back from Edale this morning (we had been staying out there, long story) saw someone going out bouldering at 8 o'clock this morning at Burbage 

[TobyD]

Driving back from Edale this morning (we had been staying out there, long story) saw someone going out bouldering at 8 o'clock this morning at Burbage 

Words fail me. The utter selfishness is genuinely disgusting. 

[TobyD]

There was a tearful phone call from a palliative care consultant on the today programme this morning basically saying before you step out of the door,  think what is the best way to stop any more preventable transmission.  I think that if you have to stop to ask yourself whether something is okay,  it's not, stay at home. 

[spidermonkey09]

Driving back from Edale this morning (we had been staying out there, long story) saw someone going out bouldering at 8 o'clock this morning at Burbage 

Wankers.

With no guidance for the self employed its pretty inevitable that contractors and general construction workers will continue going to work until they are ordered not to. What are they supposed to do otherwise? Universal Credit doesn't touch the sides for my parents with a mortgage to pay.

[SamT]

Number 10 tweeted an Emergency Covid-19 Alert last night stating:

“The only reasons you may leave home - To go to work (if you’re a key worker)”

And then deleted it and changed it to:

“The only reasons you may leave home - To go to work (but work from home if possible)”

No wonder they’re causing so much confusion.

This ^^^^

Our tester sent us a screen grab of the 'key worker' version.  I however, could not find it anywhere on the gov website last night. only the 'essential work' version.   So we were flummoxed as to what to do.  Didn't sleep well. 

But at 3am, (yes 3am) he texted a tweet from Robert Jenrick - Sec. of State for Housing .
that categorically says if working on site, continue to do so.

https://twitter.com/RobertJenrick/status/1242210351007096836?s=20

Then on This morning,  Gove announced in interview that construction industry is to continue.

So put me at ease a little bit that we're not flying in the face of the lockdown.  (At the same time, acutely aware that it's not necessarily the 'right' thing to be doing).

But, like nearly everyone in any business, we're going to keep going till categorically told to stop.  Our guy seems relatively happy to continue, as far as I can tell, and he'd fully decked with gloves, sanitiser, wipes etc and we're confident that he can keep himself to himself on site.