[Will Hunt]

Can't help but agree with what's been said today.
In spite of agreeing that this is what needs to be done, I still predict that there will be fallout because of the shutdown. I'll posit that in about 10-15 years we'll have a phrase in usage. Corona Kid. Noun. A person of a particular generation who is socially maladjusted or intellectually stunted due to a period of necessary isolation during the 2020-21 Coronavirus pandemic.

Then there'll be those kids who are actually killed or otherwise critically neglected by their parents during the shut down.

[Davo]

If your climbing is more important than someone else’s life, you are a fucking cunt.

It’s going to be hard, after this, to respect a lot of people.

Couldn't agree more. I'm reading elsewhere that some tosser took a big fall off of Cyrn Las yesterday and had to be rescued. Should have been left to die, or self-rescue by crawling back to fucking Sussex. I hope they're being treated with the contempt they deserve in Ysbyty Gwynedd

I really don’t think this kind of language or way of discussing things is acceptable. I think if you feel this way you are better not posting at all. I would much rather we have a vigorous discussion about what is acceptable etc and try to see each other’s points of view without resorting to black and white offensive statements as above

Dave

[Muenchener]

I really don’t think this kind of language or way of discussing things is acceptable.

Fair enough. I didn't up until a week or so ago either.

[Bonjoy]

In the short term full lockdown is necessary. Its unrealistic to expect people will behave in societies best interests without hard rules.
In the longer term, once infection rates are under control, I think a staggered weekend should be introduced. The traditional shared weekend is pointless and counterproductive when kids aren't at school and most are working from home or not working. It just funnels everyone out of the house at the same time. Social distancing would be much more achievable if the load was spread across 7 days rather than 2. But only once infection rates have been suppressed by lock down.

[abarro81]

Totally get your thinking here Alex but i reckon 100k would be a really good outcome from where we are now if the medium article is right, social distancing is applied loosely and the virus mutates etc. It could be really bad.

Yeah, I fear you're right, I was just struck by Tomtom's post, because at 100k (just the number he wrote down) it's not clear to me that a 12 month lockdown would be worth it. Purely from a tax and spend perspective, the economic difference would probably be so large that you could (in theory) take the difference in government coffers between the two scenarios and spend that money on increased funding elsewhere to save more than 100k lives. The numbers here are conjecture, but I'm sure you get the general point. As I write this it occurs to me that the gov is no doubt doing the same sums behind closed doors, and that the shudowns and resulting stimulus package we've already seen might imply that they're pretty scared about how big the numbers could get.

If your climbing is more important than someone else’s life, you are a fucking cunt.

I didn't see your post before it was removed so I only have Muencher's quote to go off, but I'd suggest you've not really thought hard about this. Every time you drive to the crag you increase the chances of someone dying in an RTA (indeed, this is being used as an example of why not to drive to places further away right now). But you, and I, still do it, despite the fact that that you believe that that makes you, and I, a fucking cunt. It's all probabilities and stats, and there's a debate to be had about where those probabilities and stats sit, whether the self-righteous vitue-signalling part of you likes it or not.

[nai]

I'll posit that in about 10-15 years we'll have a phrase in usage. Corona Kid. Noun. A person of a particular generation who is socially maladjusted or intellectually stunted due to a period of necessary isolation during the 2020-21 Coronavirus pandemic.

Then there'll be those kids who are actually killed or otherwise critically neglected by their parents during the shut down.

Similarly there could be several thousand NHS staff who'll never return to work and spend the rest of their lives on benefits suffering with PTSD.

[Will Hunt]

I'll posit that in about 10-15 years we'll have a phrase in usage. Corona Kid. Noun. A person of a particular generation who is socially maladjusted or intellectually stunted due to a period of necessary isolation during the 2020-21 Coronavirus pandemic.

Then there'll be those kids who are actually killed or otherwise critically neglected by their parents during the shut down.

Similarly there could be several thousand NHS staff who'll never return to work and spend the rest of their lives on benefits suffering with PTSD.

Yes. That too. Just to clarify again, I'm not saying that the lockdown shouldn't happen, but we shouldn't kid ourselves that it will be consequence free.

I'm not completely ignorant of the risks to NHS staff either. My wife could be recalled from maternity as she is a nurse.

[mikester]

I can see a schism developing in the climbing community similar to the miners' strikes of the 80s. We're not there yet, and I hope I'm getting ahead of myself, but if climbing outside becomes restricted, either by mandate or by some kind of community consensus, then those who flout the restriction could be the modern scabs. I grew up in an area hard hit by the pit closures and the social ostracism of scabs was severe.

[Oldmanmatt]

Since Simon didn’t like my last post...

If you feel, that anyone in the threatened brackets, is an acceptable sacrifice (as in, for them to die or suffer) so that you might continue to pursue your hobby; then the next time you meet one of them, explain to them why it it is so.

This is not JUST about the elderly. It doesn’t even need to  be a particularly “serious” underlying health condition, Asthma will do and you fit the bill for an unpleasant few weeks in ICU of death.

This isn’t a nice death (if there is such a thing), this is a slow, hours, days or even weeks, choking on your own bodily fluids. If you’ve ever watch someone die of Cancer (oedema) you’ll have an image of that to draw on.

If you think, the economic cost, of letting the hospitals collapse under the weight of pandemic levels of demand, the deaths, the mourning, the anger and resentment, etc etc, is somehow less than the cost of a temporary shutdown; then you are not actually allow for the former in your thinking.

My younger sister, diabetic (with a diabetes induced heart condition) gets up every day and goes to the Royal Devon and Exeter  hospital, where she works as an administrator (not even front line) and tries to keep things going. She was already breaking down in tears, last weekend, just getting ready for it.

As I stated in the removed post, it’s going to be really difficult to respect some people when this is all over.

Get a grip. This isn’t flu, it isn’t just “Old” people who would die anyway. Just because it’s “mainly” so, does not excuse writing off all those others.

Now, if you are sure your reasoning is good and the cost is not worth the sacrifice, perhaps you should next consider if “putting people out of their misery” should be acceptable? Because, like it or lump it, it’s no less a reasonable argument, under the logic of the first assumption.

If you’re not willing to tell someone they are not worth saving, stay at home.



 

[Andy W]

Since Simon didn’t like my last post...

If you feel, that anyone in the threatened brackets, is an acceptable sacrifice (as in, for them to die or suffer) so that you might continue to pursue your hobby; then the next time you meet one of them, explain to them why it it is so.

This is not JUST about the elderly. It doesn’t even need to  be a particularly “serious” underlying health condition, Asthma will do and you fit the bill for an unpleasant few weeks in ICU of death.

This isn’t a nice death (if there is such a thing), this is a slow, hours, days or even weeks, choking on your own bodily fluids. If you’ve ever watch someone die of Cancer (oedema) you’ll have an image of that to draw on.

If you think, the economic cost, of letting the hospitals collapse under the weight of pandemic levels of demand, the deaths, the mourning, the anger and resentment, etc etc, is somehow less than the cost of a temporary shutdown; then you are not actually allow for the former in your thinking.

My younger sister, diabetic (with a diabetes induced heart condition) gets up every day and goes to the Royal Devon and Exeter  hospital, where she works as an administrator (not even front line) and tries to keep things going. She was already breaking down in tears, last weekend, just getting ready for it.

As I stated in the removed post, it’s going to be really difficult to respect some people when this is all over.

Get a grip. This isn’t flu, it isn’t just “Old” people who would die anyway. Just because it’s “mainly” so, does not excuse writing off all those others.

Now, if you are sure your reasoning is good and the cost is not worth the sacrifice, perhaps you should next consider if “putting people out of their misery” should be acceptable? Because, like it or lump it, it’s no less a reasonable argument, under the logic of the first assumption.

If you’re not willing to tell someone they are not worth saving, stay at home.

Completely with you on this Matt. Here in France there is still a debate about what you can and can't do, as if finding loopholes is somehow a worthwhile thing to do. Get a grip people!

[Oldmanmatt]

If your climbing is more important than someone else’s life, you are a fucking cunt.

It’s going to be hard, after this, to respect a lot of people.

Couldn't agree more. I'm reading elsewhere that some tosser took a big fall off of Cyrn Las yesterday and had to be rescued. Should have been left to die, or self-rescue by crawling back to fucking Sussex. I hope they're being treated with the contempt they deserve in Ysbyty Gwynedd

I really don’t think this kind of language or way of discussing things is acceptable. I think if you feel this way you are better not posting at all. I would much rather we have a vigorous discussion about what is acceptable etc and try to see each other’s points of view without resorting to black and white offensive statements as above

Dave

I see you were assuming I was referring to you?

Why is that?

No. My opinion of people who think this way, is not going to change because you are upset by swear words.

It’s not a debate, is it? It is the wholesale dismissal of thousands of human beings, simply because the person doing the dismissing believes themselves outside the categories to be dismissed.

There are always hard decisions to be made. Like many others, I’ve made a few myself. This is not such a hard decision. Or at least it shouldn’t be.

If we lose our business and have to start again, so be it.
It will be the third time for me, starting again with nothing, it hurts, I’m too old for that shit again, but I will do it, we will do it; even if it saved a single life.

I’m letting my children read these threads, I want them to understand what happens when things get hard and why people think the way they do.
Make of that what you will.
Ultimately, it’s possible to justify almost anything, with seemingly impeccable logic.

Go for it.

[tc]

Since Simon didn’t like my last post...

If you feel, that anyone in the threatened brackets, is an acceptable sacrifice (as in, for them to die or suffer) so that you might continue to pursue your hobby; then the next time you meet one of them, explain to them why it it is so.

This is not JUST about the elderly. It doesn’t even need to  be a particularly “serious” underlying health condition, Asthma will do and you fit the bill for an unpleasant few weeks in ICU of death.

This isn’t a nice death (if there is such a thing), this is a slow, hours, days or even weeks, choking on your own bodily fluids. If you’ve ever watch someone die of Cancer (oedema) you’ll have an image of that to draw on.

If you think, the economic cost, of letting the hospitals collapse under the weight of pandemic levels of demand, the deaths, the mourning, the anger and resentment, etc etc, is somehow less than the cost of a temporary shutdown; then you are not actually allow for the former in your thinking.

My younger sister, diabetic (with a diabetes induced heart condition) gets up every day and goes to the Royal Devon and Exeter  hospital, where she works as an administrator (not even front line) and tries to keep things going. She was already breaking down in tears, last weekend, just getting ready for it.

As I stated in the removed post, it’s going to be really difficult to respect some people when this is all over.

Get a grip. This isn’t flu, it isn’t just “Old” people who would die anyway. Just because it’s “mainly” so, does not excuse writing off all those others.

Now, if you are sure your reasoning is good and the cost is not worth the sacrifice, perhaps you should next consider if “putting people out of their misery” should be acceptable? Because, like it or lump it, it’s no less a reasonable argument, under the logic of the first assumption.

If you’re not willing to tell someone they are not worth saving, stay at home.

Completely with you on this Matt. Here in France there is still a debate about what you can and can't do, as if finding loopholes is somehow a worthwhile thing to do. Get a grip people!

Amen to that, brethren. Recommended reading for anyone still thinking about finding loopholes:

 https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/the-story-of-a-coronavirus-infection.html?utm_source=fb&fbclid=IwAR03kX55HtUS8tvRwiXw8E_Uf6JEjkENPKAcX-Lp-veBycQJ5koN_NsjgJc

Stay safe.

[Muenchener]

This is not JUST about the elderly. It doesn’t even need to  be a particularly “serious” underlying health condition, Asthma will do and you fit the bill for an unpleasant few weeks in ICU of death.

My ex is on immunosuppressants for rheumatoid arthritis; our son is firmly staying with me and not going anywhere near her for the duration.

She is also btw a pharma project manager with expertise in late stage clinical trials, so could (hopefully) be a handy person to still have around in a few months.

[jwi]

There are likely about 1 million people infected by the virus in UK.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/340066404_Predicting_the_number_of_COVID-19_cases_from_the_reported_number_of_deaths

A few of you already have the virus.

The new trolley dilemma:

You are in a trolley. On the track infront of you there are people. Do you break?

[Bonjoy]

 :

Since Simon didn’t like my last post...

If you feel, that anyone in the threatened brackets, is an acceptable sacrifice (as in, for them to die or suffer) so that you might continue to pursue your hobby; then the next time you meet one of them, explain to them why it it is so.

This is not JUST about the elderly. It doesn’t even need to  be a particularly “serious” underlying health condition, Asthma will do and you fit the bill for an unpleasant few weeks in ICU of death.

This isn’t a nice death (if there is such a thing), this is a slow, hours, days or even weeks, choking on your own bodily fluids. If you’ve ever watch someone die of Cancer (oedema) you’ll have an image of that to draw on.

If you think, the economic cost, of letting the hospitals collapse under the weight of pandemic levels of demand, the deaths, the mourning, the anger and resentment, etc etc, is somehow less than the cost of a temporary shutdown; then you are not actually allow for the former in your thinking.

My younger sister, diabetic (with a diabetes induced heart condition) gets up every day and goes to the Royal Devon and Exeter  hospital, where she works as an administrator (not even front line) and tries to keep things going. She was already breaking down in tears, last weekend, just getting ready for it.

As I stated in the removed post, it’s going to be really difficult to respect some people when this is all over.

Get a grip. This isn’t flu, it isn’t just “Old” people who would die anyway. Just because it’s “mainly” so, does not excuse writing off all those others.

Now, if you are sure your reasoning is good and the cost is not worth the sacrifice, perhaps you should next consider if “putting people out of their misery” should be acceptable? Because, like it or lump it, it’s no less a reasonable argument, under the logic of the first assumption.

If you’re not willing to tell someone they are not worth saving, stay at home.

Question:
This is a genuine example. I have a friend who is a severe asthmatic. His partner is a key worker in the NHS. As such he is forced to isolate from his partner and young kids in his (small) living room. Normally he's an extremely active individual (running, climbing, cycling, gym). Does your blanket condemnation extend to him if he chose to venture out and did so in a truly solo safe way? What about off duty physically and mentally exhausted NHS workers?
I'm not offering an answer. I'm just interested to know how absolute a position you're taking.

[Oldmanmatt]

Totally get your thinking here Alex but i reckon 100k would be a really good outcome from where we are now if the medium article is right, social distancing is applied loosely and the virus mutates etc. It could be really bad.

Yeah, I fear you're right, I was just struck by Tomtom's post, because at 100k (just the number he wrote down) it's not clear to me that a 12 month lockdown would be worth it. Purely from a tax and spend perspective, the economic difference would probably be so large that you could (in theory) take the difference in government coffers between the two scenarios and spend that money on increased funding elsewhere to save more than 100k lives. The numbers here are conjecture, but I'm sure you get the general point. As I write this it occurs to me that the gov is no doubt doing the same sums behind closed doors, and that the shudowns and resulting stimulus package we've already seen might imply that they're pretty scared about how big the numbers could get.

If your climbing is more important than someone else’s life, you are a fucking cunt.

I didn't see your post before it was removed so I only have Muencher's quote to go off, but I'd suggest you've not really thought hard about this. Every time you drive to the crag you increase the chances of someone dying in an RTA (indeed, this is being used as an example of why not to drive to places further away right now). But you, and I, still do it, despite the fact that that you believe that that makes you, and I, a fucking cunt. It's all probabilities and stats, and there's a debate to be had about where those probabilities and stats sit, whether the self-righteous vitue-signalling part of you likes it or not.

Alex, Bonjoy, I’m not really talking about people going to the crag.

I can see a thousand ways to make that as safe as taking a shower at home and the risk of RTA is no greater than that on your next food run. It is less important, but no riskier.

I’m talking about the way all three threads about this bloody virus, keep swinging back to the “it’s not worth it” line.

It is.

The worst part of that, of course, is that if what is done helps and we reduce the death and suffering (can we just stop calling it “numbers”? Face the reality, it’s real people, experiencing real pain, suffering and death), then those same people will be whinging forever how their loss wasn’t worth it.

Nice, for them, to get to whinge and hopefully they get a long healthy life to do it in.

It is mother’s day and that’s a hard day here, probably partly why I’ve snapped, finally. So I’m out.

[Bonjoy]

OMM for what it's worth I agree we need hard suppression measures asap.

[andy popp]

a large number of elderly people, of whom many would die anyway.

Yeah, fuck 'em.

[Will Hunt]

As above, it's not just the elderly. There are people who post on this board who are immuno-suppressed, or their partner is, or someone they love is otherwise at risk.

I completely understand Matt's post, and brutal language is useful for shocking others into action. But. We're in the process of a complete paradigm shift in what is acceptable. The rate of progression of public thought over the past week has been unlike anything we've ever known. It is regrettable, but ultimately understandable, that various people in different demographics are at different points on the progression. If we rip each other to shreds with a complete scorched earth policy in this transition period then the long months ahead are going to be made much more unpleasant.

UKB should be like family. We need to stick together and be decent to each other.

[shark]

Amen to that, brethren. Recommended reading for anyone still thinking about finding loopholes:

 https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/the-story-of-a-coronavirus-infection.html?utm_source=fb&fbclid=IwAR03kX55HtUS8tvRwiXw8E_Uf6JEjkENPKAcX-Lp-veBycQJ5koN_NsjgJc

Stay safe.

 

[andy popp]

As above, it's not just the elderly. There are people who post on this board who are immuno-suppressed, or their partner is, or someone they love is otherwise at risk.

I completely understand Matt's post, and brutal language is useful for shocking others into action. But. We're in the process of a complete paradigm shift in what is acceptable. The rate of progression of public thought over the past week has been unlike anything we've ever known. It is regrettable, but ultimately understandable, that various people in different demographics are at different points on the progression. If we rip each other to shreds with a complete scorched earth policy in this transition period then the long months ahead are going to be made much more unpleasant.

UKB should be like family. We need to stick together and be decent to each other.

Yes, my wife is seriously ill in hospital with an auto-immune disease and my daughter is a type 1 diabetic.

If Davo wants to say that "a large number" of elderly people might die, but so be it, then I'm sorry but I'm just not going to find that a "relatable" position.

[Murph]

Yep, emotional subject. This is going to be very serious. Yet plenty of people carrying on as normal - all sorts of mothers day meet ups are happening today and the thinking even among those thinking seriously about it is often why not - it hasn't been banned - I am keeping social distance etc. Not enough you arent.

In wuhan they allowed one person out per household every three days to buy food. Really good compliance. That got it licked. Current uk policy though obviously changed quite a bit in a week feels like the duck and cover policy when the A bombs start going off.

[Davo]

a large number of elderly people, of whom many would die anyway.

Yeah, fuck 'em.

Doesn’t really seem a fair reflection of what I wrote. Possibly you should read it again?

[Davo]

[/quote]

Yes, my wife is seriously ill in hospital with an auto-immune disease and my daughter is a type 1 diabetic.

If Davo wants to say that "a large number" of elderly people might die, but so be it, then I'm sorry but I'm just not going to find that a "relatable" position.
[/quote]

I hope sincerely that you and your family stay safe. I have not at any point said “so be it”. My point is that any option here comes with serious harm attached. The long term issues from what we are doing are hard to see but they will certainly entail a large amount of financial hardship for a large number of families with people who are self employed and the main bread winner. This period seems to me guaranteed to result in an increase in mental health issues due to financial stresses. The effects of our school age children will be very hard to determine. I have no idea what stressing the importance of keeping 2 metres away from everyone and being ultra clean etc  is likely to do to the psyche of your average child - nothing good I am sure! I think most people would agree that the financial crisis of 2008 caused serious harm to many people for example in terms of health outcomes etc and especially hit the poorest hardest. This is (in my opinion) what will happen here again.

If you think that I am being heartless then I really don’t think you have read my post at all. I am simply saying what we are doing comes with a consequence and that it is not straightforward to weigh up the right answer.

Also, allocation of scarce resources with serious consequences for lives is something that we live with on a day to day basis. The allocation of money into various areas of the NHS all comes with trade offs. The money we pump into paediatrics can not be pumped into elderly care and vice versa. These decisions cost and also save lives at the same time.

[mrjonathanr]

The reason I come here - a lot - and eschew Ukc is the quality of debate. To me that means if you are incensed by a post, replying calmly.

It would be a shame to lose the ability of the forum to discuss things, especially very difficult and contentious things, productively.