[Oldmanmatt]

Actually, I think I need o challenge Pete’s perception further, because I think it sums up the problems with this sot of debate.

He’s not actually listening or reading. He has prejudged the cant of the poster and coloured in their offerings in his choice of pallet.

Let me explain.

(It was 5am when the pain woke me, so I’m in a silent house, unable to rest until the drugs kick in).

I reviewed my posts on this thread. I wondered, quite seriously, about the idea that I was some sort of Groaner regurgitator.

I made 33 posts.

I linked to 6 external articles or images:


The Independent x 1

The National Interst x 1

UK Defence Journal x 1

A Photo (copied from a local FB post) x 1

SMBC comics x 1

The Times x 1

Guardian x 1

(So, yes, I linked to a Gary Young piece. I linked without comment or endorsement or criticism).

I knew I was reading a broad spectrum of both reporting and opinion. I knew I generally didn’t feel any need to share much from the more rightwing media. That’s because I could see it was misleading or (often) false.
The key point, though, is that I felt the same about the Leftwing media too.

The idea that others are “indoctrinated” and just “regurgitating printed opinion” is simply a comfort blanket, for those with more extreme views on either wing.

 I seems obvious to me that the political views expressed in a forum such as this, are going to be fairy middle of the road; since the bell curve of political  opinion is quite high in the center.

I think those with a defined cant, will always see the centrist as “central to leaning the other way”.

So, Pete sees us as “centrist to left leaning” in the majority, whereas (I’m sure) Brutus sees us as “centrist to right leaning”. The centrist is always Schrodinger’s voter. The further an individual slips into a hue, the more their perception of the dividing lines between the hues, shifts with them.
And the sharper the line appears, too.

I reckon there’s some sort of correlation between degree of political leaning and ability to relate, at all, to another individual, akin to that hypothesis about romantic relationships only being possible between people with a relatively small IQ/Intellect divergence...

It goes back to my “you’re not Red/Blue enough to be in my gang” comment.
That’s what’s actually causing the problems, not the Guardian.

For what it’s worth, I find the Guardian, way more balanced and objective than the Telegraph. Not neutral, just less obviously a rabid political rag.

[tomtom]

A couple of media points...

The Guardian is the only broadsheet owned by a trust rather than an oligarch or the Barclay brothers (I think)....

Whilst the newspapers all exist on a burning platform and we slag them off - they are still written by trained and talented journalists. Who’s craft is about having balance and factuality. Obvs we usually hear about the 1% of articles where that doesn’t happen - but otherwise we’d just have a Facebook feed of tripe.

Finally out TV news can press some bias buttons - but it’s not Fox News (which could not exist in the UK) which is simply propaganda.

[TobyD]

Actually, I think I need o challenge Pete’s perception further, because I think it sums up the problems with this sot of debate.
...
For what it’s worth, I find the Guardian, way more balanced and objective than the Telegraph. Not neutral, just less obviously a rabid political rag.

Good points, I seem to have  been criticised on this thread for being too lefty and too critical of Corbyn, sometimes for the same post.
One thing however,  I haven't read the telegraph much recently,  but I find the guardian often unreadably partial. Owen Jones for example...
Anyway,  all of this matters little,  since I think that barring any major screw ups by Johnson,  he'll win a small majority and manage to ram his deal through

[Offwidth]

Another day another Guardian article link by Toby, Offwidth or OMM on a UKB politics thread.
Out of curiosity I counted how many in this thread:

Guardian links: 19
New Statesman: 3
Times: 2
Independent: 1
FT: 1
NY Times: 1

ECHO!

One of my reasons is payalls. I'd be linking the FT and Times (esp Mathew Parris) loads more if not. The Telegraph has lost its mind (and is frothing at the nouth) over brexit and the two main party leaders. The Independent has pre senile dementia.

[petejh]

I'd much rather read someone post about reading something they instinctively disagreed with and that challenged their belief; than yet another post about a link to a Guardian opinion piece that aligns with the poster's view. Try the torygraph for a week or two!

Which writers fulfil this for you at the telegraph? Any examples that aren’t paywalled? Or is the Tele more in line with your particular chamber of echoes and it’s the constant Graun articles that you instinctively disagree with?

I note the tele do a free trial but i am slightly concerned about forgetting and accidentally giving them some money.

? Making the point that this place is a Guardian echo chamber does not mean I'm not a Guardian reader. I'm a Guardian reader mostly. Despite disagreeing with the majority of the political opinion pieces.

I read the torygraph and independent for a bit of a different opinion but certainly wouldn't consider myself a natural torygraph target reader either, unless it's for investment advice 

[teestub]

? Making the point that this place is a Guardian echo chamber does not mean I'm not a Guardian reader. I'm a Guardian reader mostly. Despite disagreeing with the majority of the political opinion pieces.

Ah cool, so you’re asking for other people to post articles that have challenged them without doing so yourself?

[TobyD]

I'd much rather read someone post about reading something they instinctively disagreed with and that challenged their belief; than yet another post about a link to a Guardian opinion piece that aligns with the poster's view. Try the torygraph for a week or two!

Which writers fulfil this for you at the telegraph? Any examples that aren’t paywalled? Or is the Tele more in line with your particular chamber of echoes and it’s the constant Graun articles that you instinctively disagree with?

I note the tele do a free trial but i am slightly concerned about forgetting and accidentally giving them some money.

? Making the point that this place is a Guardian echo chamber does not mean I'm not a Guardian reader. I'm a Guardian reader mostly. Despite disagreeing with the majority of the political opinion pieces.

I read the torygraph and independent for a bit of a different opinion but certainly wouldn't consider myself a natural torygraph target reader either, unless it's for investment advice 

Mmm.  Having a general cynicism and thinking leaving the EU is okay really doesn't really radically set you aside from the ukb echo chamber does it?
I'd actually say that for example, guardian is pro far left labour, and ukb holds a spectrum of broadly centrist opinion, which I'd place closer to the general outlook of The Times, although that's slightly further right, though I'd say not that much.

Perhaps climbers don't tend to be anti vaxxers or rabid brexit party anti immigration proponents because if one climbed and were that stupid, you wouldn't last very long... 

[Oldmanmatt]

I’m glad you made the intellect point Toby.

I was trying to sit on it, an Elephant in the room thing.

I’ve not come across any poster that struck me as lacking in the intellect department here, regardless of political leanings.

[petejh]

? Making the point that this place is a Guardian echo chamber does not mean I'm not a Guardian reader. I'm a Guardian reader mostly. Despite disagreeing with the majority of the political opinion pieces.

Ah cool, so you’re asking for other people to post articles that have challenged them without doing so yourself?

Yes, exactly that. I haven’t been contributing to this thread and don’t intend to any further than to point out how dull it is to read endless link of Guardian articles.

[mrjonathanr]

I find the guardian often unreadably partial. Owen Jones for example

One solution is to simply not read the ones that are heavily skewed. There are plenty of journalists I don’t consider ‘serious’- I don’t read them.

(And I don’t mean heavy or pompous, just attempting not to elide fact and opinion. Marina Hyde, John Crace - serious in one way, not at all in another).

[tommytwotone]

Just confound expectations - breaking news that EU has said that UK will get a very basic trade deal (or no trade deal) if Bojo wants to stick to his 31st December 2020 negotiating timeline.


Read it in...(get ready Pete)...The Sun:


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/10372646/eu-trade-boss-bare-bones-brexit/


Phwoooarrr etc.

[reeve]

UKB is 95% remain and I'd estimate 85% centre or left.

Has anyone wondered why this is the case? There is nothing here selecting for income group or education.
An interest is bouldering and access to a computer seem to be all that's required - is it age-related or to do with the lack of bouldering in the SE?

I think this is a really good question to ponder, especially T because doing so helps understand why other segments of society have a tendency to vote differently. I watched this TED talk a few weeks ago which I thought was brilliant. The main point being that those who are socially liberal terms to score higher on the personality trait of 'openness to experience'. I'd guess that most climbers would do so as well, and as such this site is populated by more socially liberal folk who see a greater benefit in the ease of travel and closer integration with Europe (not necessarily with the EU, there's probably a different question)

Link: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind%3Flanguage%3Den&ved=2ahUKEwj60oa4sPblAhUUEcAKHXxNCBUQwqsBMAB6BAgGEAU&usg=AOvVaw1JGFU2GtiQa_z1jRm1iDEt

[TobyD]

I find the guardian often unreadably partial. Owen Jones for example

One solution is to simply not read the ones that are heavily skewed. There are plenty of journalists I don’t consider ‘serious’- I don’t read them.

(And I don’t mean heavy or pompous, just attempting not to elide fact and opinion. Marina Hyde, John Crace - serious in one way, not at all in another).

Yes I agree, but I like to try to challenge / irritate myself by reading them as I do with say Dominic Lawson in the Sunday Times.

Just confound expectations - breaking news that EU has said that UK will get a very basic trade deal (or no trade deal) if Bojo wants to stick to his 31st December 2020 negotiating timeline.
Read it in...(get ready Pete)...The Sun:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/10372646/eu-trade-boss-bare-bones-brexit/

Okay, but what agreements on quotas and regulatory alignment will Johnson be able to sell to enough of his party to get even a basic deal through? My guess is if a basic deal was offered the EU would request something that the frothing eurosceptic contingent will reject and we'll end up with no deal anyway. However, Johnson does seem to appeal to people in person and maybe, just maybe he could pull something out of the bag.

If as expected he gets his majority, it's pretty depressing that the PM for the next 5 years will be widely acknowledged as a serial liar who treats women like shit, and appears to have no idealological or moral compass. Still, if he can manage to leave in a way that doesn't ruin the country, is he realistically the best option?

Or is 'best option' moving to New Zealand at this point?

[tomtom]

By then NZ will have probably turned on its head - following one of the most progressive seeming PM's in years some trump style loon will be in charge... :D

[Offwidth]

Another Guardian link, but Oborne is a lifelong tory supporter and ex columnist in right wing broadsheets. I agree with him entirely, including his serious concerns with the press failing to hold Boris to account for his increasingly blatant lies.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/18/boris-johnson-lying-media

When facing a compulsive liar and opportunistic snake oil salesman, who will sell the country out for his own power, Corbyn is a saint in comparison (and he will likely be leading a minority government at best, so will be neutered) . Unless climbers want the country to be stuffed they need to be encouraging voter registration and local campaigns based on the best chances for 'anything but Boris'. any other option is doing the bidding of this most dishonest ever tory campaign

[TobyD]

I don't disagree with you offwidth, I just think it's unlikely to happen, Corbyn is just too unpopular and divisive as a leader to form the necessary alliances and attract enough voters, I fear.

[Offwidth]

So through fear you won't fight for what's best? All that is needed is to elect the best anti Boris MP in our marginals.

These are the latest CCHQ dirty tricks:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/19/tories-tweet-anti-labour-posts-under-factcheckuk-brand

The tories want a unicorn brexit deal but Europe will only give them a softist brexit (with gordian knots) through the backdoor of Boris' s deal almost forcing no deal by next year. When the proposed tory spending spree in the NHS etc hits that economic reality, the UK is fucked. Getting the deal through Parliament isn't getting brexit done, its the start of complex negotiations where reality will bite hard.  In the new reality the most reactionary Tory government we ever had, that got elected on a pack of lies, will do what exactly? Certainly nothing good... doffed cap to the US seems most likely to me and even a possible begging of the end to the welfare state... that tory libertarian right wet dream.

[tomtom]

So I watched last nights TV disussion. Its clear to me that:

(a) Boris spouts like a malfunctioning sphincter. He has no concept of time or listening to anyone else - repeatedely speaking over people and dragging the message back to his brexit deal. If you were to insert 'strong and stable' every time he said my brexit deal - it would have been the Maybot in a foppish wig and a comedy belly.

(b) Corbyn should have gone to the specsavers Boris helped mop out. Wonky specs and squinting delivery throughout. Sure I'm focusing on the trivia but it did make him look as shifty as a 15 year old in front of the head master for smoking next to school. How he missed the open goal - the sitter of all sitters - when talking about personal accountability, of not raising Johnsons habitual lying, mysogony, racism etc.. etc.. Perhaps Labour and Tory HQ had a secret pact "we won't say marxist if you dont mention that Jennifer woman"...

The audience laughed (as in - are you taking the piss knobhead? - rather than you're funny) several times at both of them.

What a shower of shit.

[Offwidth]

As a reminder, this is the resaon I have plenty of hope. The election maths isn't simply determined by polling numbers, due to so many local complexities. These are the marginals:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50349111

To get a working majority the tories need to win nearly all their own rebel seats, plus some to replace the DUP working arrangement, plus a safety margin. They will almost certainly lose around 10 seats in Scotland. They will almost certainly lose ten or more to the Lib Dems in the South and SW. Given oddities (Labour are strong favorites in Broxtowe, as Anna Soubry was not far ahead of Labour last time and is standing against the tories, and there is no Lib Dem due to their pact), they need to take 40 odd Labour held marginals where Brexit are standing in all but a few. To do that they need a 10% plus swing in those seats against Labour, with many popular moderate local Labour MPs, often standing against some unattractive tory right wing fresh faces. Labour still have the biggest party machine on the ground. Labour are outspending the tories on social media (with few plain lies to come back and bite them). In the vast majority of the key marginals it's a pretty uncomplicated 2 way fight: Labour-tory in the marginal Labour seats and Lib Dem- tory in the S and SW seats. If progressives want to 'win' this election,  to stop the Boris brexit madness, and with a minority Labour government as a result, the path is crystal clear.

[Offwidth]

What a shower of shit.

Solution to a shower of shit.. work hard to elect those moderate Lib Dems in the S and SW and those moderate Labour MPs in the midlands, Wales and north marginals who will kick out the Boris brexit and neuter the Corbyn wing of Labour.

[tommytwotone]

(b) Corbyn should have gone to the specsavers Boris helped mop out. Wonky specs and squinting delivery throughout. Sure I'm focusing on the trivia but it did make him look as shifty as a 15 year old in front of the head master for smoking next to school. How he missed the open goal - the sitter of all sitters - when talking about personal accountability, of not raising Johnsons habitual lying, mysogony, racism etc.. etc.. Perhaps Labour and Tory HQ had a secret pact "we won't say marxist if you dont mention that Jennifer woman"...

The audience laughed (as in - are you taking the piss knobhead? - rather than you're funny) several times at both of them.

What a shower of shit.

I've a mate who's a Labour activist who I was talking to over the weekend - I was saying more or less this, i.e. why isn't Magic Grandpa going for the jugular on Acuri, concealing the Russia stuff, Boris' x kids, an unspecified number of whom are being brought up as their own by his colleagues (yes you read that right)...

His view was that this shouldn't be necessary as politics is about ideas and vision. This attitude is what is going to cost Labour any progress and consign us to 5 (and the rest) years of Tory rule.

[TobyD]

So through fear you won't fight for what's best? All that is needed is to elect the best anti Boris MP in our marginals.

I couldn't argue with the integrity of many Labour MPs,  or indeed many Conservative MPs.  The issue for me is that both parties have done their best to excise, or marginalise their members who don't precisely accord with their leader's thinking, and I'm not sure I really like either leader's thinking. It matters little what I do personally,  as the Labour incumbent in my constituency has a majority of about 30000, which I can't see being overturned.
I'd like to see the Liberal Democrats do really well in the south west and oust unpleasant characters like Anne Marie Morris, but I think that the uncompromising revoke line which is all most people will know about them will put off too many people down there. For some reason lots of people still seem to think that the EU is an awful thing for agriculture and fishing, conveniently ignoring that it's a) Not b) What about tourism, I wonder how much tourism revenue the South West would (will?) lose if (when?) we actually leave.

[TobyD]

I've a mate who's a Labour activist who I was talking to over the weekend - I was saying more or less this, i.e. why isn't Magic Grandpa going for the jugular on Acuri, concealing the Russia stuff, Boris' x kids, an unspecified number of whom are being brought up as their own by his colleagues (yes you read that right)...

His view was that this shouldn't be necessary as politics is about ideas and vision. This attitude is what is going to cost Labour any progress and consign us to 5 (and the rest) years of Tory rule.

Yup. They really,  really  can't afford to play nice. 98% of people just won't listen to nice, see Johnson as assertive not dithering and welcome to a worse, more expensive health service,  worse working conditions and much more expensive food and holidays.  O, and Priti Patel locking up anyone who they think might haul in a few more votes

[Oldmanmatt]

So through fear you won't fight for what's best? All that is needed is to elect the best anti Boris MP in our marginals.

I couldn't argue with the integrity of many Labour MPs,  or indeed many Conservative MPs.  The issue for me is that both parties have done their best to excise, or marginalise their members who don't precisely accord with their leader's thinking, and I'm not sure I really like either leader's thinking. It matters little what I do personally,  as the Labour incumbent in my constituency has a majority of about 30000, which I can't see being overturned.
I'd like to see the Liberal Democrats do really well in the south west and oust unpleasant characters like Anne Marie Morris, but I think that the uncompromising revoke line which is all most people will know about them will put off too many people down there. For some reason lots of people still seem to think that the EU is an awful thing for agriculture and fishing, conveniently ignoring that it's a) Not b) What about tourism, I wonder how much tourism revenue the South West would (will?) lose if (when?) we actually leave.

Ha!

That would be Schrodingers Emet/Grockle, simultaneously the backbone of the local economy and the greatest enemy of a certain type of local.

As a kid, I sat with my father, listening to a certain gentleman, who made his living with a beach equipment shop, a large carpark and a caravan site; bitching to my dad (a local copper) about the fucking emets clogging up the roads and making it impossible for him to park (his Jag) outside his own shop.

After driving away, my dad had to stop the car, while he burst out in hysterical laughter and then explained to me, in quite crude terms for a conversation with a 13 year old, what a hypocritical twat the fella was since every penny the twunt had ever made came from a tourist.
But, that’s Cornwall all over.

[TobyD]

So through fear you won't fight for what's best? All that is needed is to elect the best anti Boris MP in our marginals.

I couldn't argue with the integrity of many Labour MPs,  or indeed many Conservative MPs.  The issue for me is that both parties have done their best to excise, or marginalise their members who don't precisely accord with their leader's thinking, and I'm not sure I really like either leader's thinking. It matters little what I do personally,  as the Labour incumbent in my constituency has a majority of about 30000, which I can't see being overturned.
I'd like to see the Liberal Democrats do really well in the south west and oust unpleasant characters like Anne Marie Morris, but I think that the uncompromising revoke line which is all most people will know about them will put off too many people down there. For some reason lots of people still seem to think that the EU is an awful thing for agriculture and fishing, conveniently ignoring that it's a) Not b) What about tourism, I wonder how much tourism revenue the South West would (will?) lose if (when?) we actually leave.

Ha!

That would be Schrodingers Emet/Grockle, simultaneously the backbone of the local economy and the greatest enemy of a certain type of local.

As a kid, I sat with my father, listening to a certain gentleman, who made his living with a beach equipment shop, a large carpark and a caravan site; bitching to my dad (a local copper) about the fucking emets clogging up the roads and making it impossible for him to park (his Jag) outside his own shop.

After driving away, my dad had to stop the car, while he burst out in hysterical laughter and then explained to me, in quite crude terms for a conversation with a 13 year old, what a hypocritical twat the fella was since every penny the twunt had ever made came from a tourist.
But, that’s Cornwall all over.

Yup, that's the lovely spirit I recognize. People who want to tear it all down and keep their place nice and quiet for them.

Only, perhaps, to discover when they've torn it down, that their place now stinks, because EU environmental regulations had ensured clean beaches, and everyone of working age has left because all the jobs have gone. O and decently qualified European NHS staff have been replaced by staff from parts of the world that they discover they like even less, with lower standards of medical training. Hooray for motherfucking sovereignty. 

Sorry, I'm feeling slightly bleak today.