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Relative Energy Deficiency in Sport (RED-S) (Read 23279 times)

stone

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If everyone was weighted down to a certain (fairly high) BMI wouldn't it be expected that %bodyfat of competition climbers would become more like that of athletes in sports where low %bodyfat provided no advantage (eg swimming I guess)? That's the aim isn't it?

I agree that it would be unfair in making competition climbing no longer an ideal sport for those of slight build. But if it is medically harmful to have the %bodyfat of many current competitors, then that's a price worth paying isn't it?

Malcom Smith did hard board problems with a weight vest didn't he?

Is the counter-argument that competitors would just build lots of muscle to get them up to any set BMI and still starve themselves and still suffer RED-S/eating-disorders etc?

Is measuring hormone levels another option? That seems very intrusive though and unlikely to meet the ideal of creating a situation where competitors were carefree about their %bodyfat.

wasbeen

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There seems to be fewer super skinny boulderers than lead. Hopefully, putting more emphasis on the combined lead and bouldering may help promote getting better through getting stronger than getting lighter. Lead routes could also be made more burley and dynamic. However, reading the IFSC press re-release, it seems they are still somewhat in denial. It reminds me a bit of the IAAF with regards to doping, where they have repeatedly avoided short-term pain in order to protect the longer term future of the sport.   

dr_botnik

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I think any notion of introducing weight classes or weight belts is nonsense, addressing the symptoms not the cause.

Just implement the recommendations of the outgoing doctors that the IFSC continue to ignore FFS....

sdm

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If everyone was weighted down to a certain (fairly high) BMI wouldn't it be expected that %bodyfat of competition climbers would become more like that of athletes in sports where low %bodyfat provided no advantage (eg swimming I guess)? That's the aim isn't it?

Swimming actually has a big problem with disordered eating.

I think it is a bigger problem in youth swimming squads than youth climbing squads.

stone

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Swimming actually has a big problem with disordered eating.

I think it is a bigger problem in youth swimming squads than youth climbing squads.

I suppose that emphasises that eating disorders can be induced/exacerbated by competitive sport even if it provides no performance advantage. Sobering. 

Stabbsy

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I suppose that emphasises that eating disorders can be induced/exacerbated by competitive sport even if it provides no performance advantage. Sobering.

I’d be surprised if weight conferred no performance advantage in swimming, although maybe via the impact on drag rather than body weight itself.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2023, 08:24:29 am by Stabbsy »

moose

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I vaguely recall hearing that for speed in swimming it's better to be slightly less buoyant - as you get more drag when more of the body is breaking the surface of the water. So less fat / more muscle can help.

Conversely, I think with long distance open water swimming, not drowning and energy conservation is the issue, so fat is more helpful - which is why women are comparatively good at those events.

James Malloch

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Could they mandate that athletes need to take an accurate body fat percentage measurement at a registered clinic, say within 2 weeks of the competition?

Combine it with some other easier measurements (weight etc) which could be repeated and checked for change at the competition to ensure there wasn't a significant difference.

Out even buy one of the Bod-Pod machines for on-site testing. With the amount of holds etc that need moving around, I’m sure they could sort something substantial like that out too.

dr_botnik

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Could they mandate that athletes need to take an accurate body fat percentage measurement at a registered clinic, say within 2 weeks of the competition?

This is what was recommended by the doctors who recently resigned, it does not appear to have been effectively implemented

Quote
There is no unique tool globally which works easily,' Dr Schöffl argues. 'At present, IOC Medical Commission experts recommend using BMI, which will change in the future to body fat ultrasound measurements. Presently it is a valid screening tool, since nothing else works across five continents and different societies so easily.'

To enable more thorough assessments, Dr Schöffl and the commission recommended using BMI - and setting higher thresholds - as a filter of sorts to help identify at-risk athletes, before suggesting that they undergo a series of extensive medical tests including blood tests, body fat measurement, bone density checks, hormone level assessments and psychological screening.

A triage system would prevent 'critical' athletes from competing and refer them to immediate medical care, while others just below the threshold would be placed in an 'observation' category involving further monitoring.

Again I say: just do what the doctors have recommended FFS

Fultonius

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Quote from: dr_botnik
Again I say: just do what the doctors have recommended FFS
[/quote

Don't be silly. Of course we're better solving it here on UKB.

I reckon all males should be normalised to 78kg. It woukd make things MUUUCH fairer*.






*I.e.would neutralise the advantages of all you wee crimp waifs  :jab:

dr_botnik

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I've been working in the field of mental health for years, and I've met people who were professional athletes as adolescents who have gone on to have debilitating problems as a result of being dropped after injury, which I believe in some instances led to their untimely death.

If anyone wants to come and try and fix things, there are plenty of job opportunities available on the NHS jobs website, feel free to apply. I'm not sure the topic will seem quite as funny after spending 12 hours a day holding people for feeds whilst they scream about how you're feeding them too much

stone

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Again I say: just do what the doctors have recommended FFS

They and you are probably right and that is the only hope. I saw though in swimming there have apparently been arguments against weighing and monitoring because that in itself can foster an unhealthy preoccupation and anxiety. I remember being told by someone who used to do athletics how she was freaked out by being subjected to calliper testing. Perhaps it all needs to be done in a way that emphasises it being purely a health screen -eg not telling the athlete (or coaches etc) the result unless it raises health concerns.

PS Full respect to you for the work you do in mental health.

abarro81

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in swimming there have apparently been arguments against weighing and monitoring because that in itself can foster an unhealthy preoccupation and anxiety

You can imagine it working almost as a goal - if a BMI of 18.5 is the limit then it could be quite easy for an athlete to think/feel they should surely be aiming to hit that for optimum performance without compromising health too much. Even if that's too thin for their body (for me that would be a full 2kg lighter than the lightest I've ever been, at which point people started asking me if I was ok and probably 4kg off a low-but-just-about-ok weight).

Fultonius

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I've been working in the field of mental health for years, and I've met people who were professional athletes as adolescents who have gone on to have debilitating problems as a result of being dropped after injury, which I believe in some instances led to their untimely death.

If anyone wants to come and try and fix things, there are plenty of job opportunities available on the NHS jobs website, feel free to apply. I'm not sure the topic will seem quite as funny after spending 12 hours a day holding people for feeds whilst they scream about how you're feeding them too much

For the avoidance of doubt (I'd be surprised if it read differently?) I was wholeheartedly agreeing with your sentiment of "listen to the fecking Drs". I then followed it with some banter about the weight class idea, which was non-constructive.


dr_botnik

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Apologies for losing my shit. It is getting scarier, each year it seems we get people younger and younger who require medical stabilisation and feeding. It's getting to the point where its not uncommon for children under 10 to be that unwell.

Fultonius

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Shit.

I can see why any flippancy can't look good for your perspective. I struggle to maintain a low (i.e. <18%!!) bodyfat and stay happy, healthy and motivated, so I've just accepted this is the genetics I have and work within that but it's a hard pillow to swallow when your mates that climb harder all have rippling 6-packs and low BF, while seemingly not struggling with energy levels etc...

I can only imagine this struggle is much more rife when you have the mix of competition, hormones, puberty etc. all in the mix.

Like you say - we should be following the Drs recommendations! (but whatever we do, it's not going to be an easy thing to enact / manage without unintended consequences.

Muenchener

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Since the topic of RED-S made the climbing news with Volker Schöffl's protest resignation from the IFSC Medical Commission a couple of weeks, back, the only in depth interview I've been able to find with him was one from last October, in German and with no transcript or English translation available.

Now Alex Megos has an interview up on his youtube channel. Haven't listened to all of it yet, but the previous one was informative (and shocking!) and this one is in English. RED-S discussion stars around 13 minutes

.

remus

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Now Alex Megos has an interview up on his youtube channel. Haven't listened to all of it yet, but the previous one was informative (and shocking!) and this one is in English. RED-S discussion stars around 13 minutes

.

Good interview, and pretty damming of the inactivity of the IFSC.

Fiend

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Now Alex Megos has an interview up on his youtube channel. Haven't listened to all of it yet, but the previous one was informative (and shocking!) and this one is in English. RED-S discussion stars around 13 minutes

.

Good interview, and pretty damming of the inactivity of the IFSC.
Indeed. Makes it very clear. I thought Megos was once an anorexia athletica posterboy?? Some rumours about him having to be helped off stage at a world cup or something? Maybe if that was the case, he's been helped enough that he realises the issue is worth highlighting.

I wonder how many amateur AA climbers are reading this, and watching that video, and thinking "Well, it's still worth it, I'm not giving up those gainz for anything...."??

Also fair enough for clearly highlighting that climbing IS a weight-orientated sport. Before watching this video I was labouring under the illusion that the best thing for my own climbing would be to lose 10+kg. Now I realise that it would actually be to lose 20+kg...



Fiend

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I've just had another semi-terrible idea (as much as I'm already in agreement with stone's crimp-waif-punishing weight belt idea).

On the climber intro images that get shown on IFSC comps, as well as Age and Height, also have Weight - with an automated BMI calculation with the position shown on the "healthy range" bar, and ditto for Body Fat Percentage. Then viewers could appreciate the situation with reactions like "Well she looks skinny but well she's still in both healthy ranges so that's good inspiration" or "He's ripped but he only podiumed because he's unhealthily underweight, so that won't last". Of course nothing could possibly go wrong with posting those stats publicly  :look:

Fultonius

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They used to post weight on the IFSC althete pages. I once went on to check Laura Rogora's and it was not disclosed.....................             


duncan

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Climbing athletes demand eating disorder action before Olympics

Article about RED-S in Reuters, a very good overview I thought. Lead author is known to some here.


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Fultonius

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On the face of it, it seems like they've taken most things on board. I guess the success of it will be in the implementation and how seriously they take the random tests etc.

Good to see they're doing something.

 

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