UKBouldering.com

Relative Energy Deficiency in Sport (RED-S) (Read 23226 times)

Fiend

Offline
  • *
  • _
  • forum hero
  • Abominable sex magick practitioner and climbing heathen
  • Posts: 13364
  • Karma: +667/-67
  • Whut
Mmmmm some vintage baiting / attention-seeking Gapescrote on this thread! I do tend to agree with one implied point though, can we just call it what it is i.e. anorexia - within the context of a sport that rewards a certain level of power-to-weight enhancing eating disorder.

Fair play for Volker taking a public stance and a pity his efforts haven't come to anything yet. I wonder if it's callous to say "just let them get on with it", acknowledge that minimal body fat is one key component to performance and the athletes can choose to do that and take the risks in return for greater comp success.

Wellsy

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1362
  • Karma: +101/-8
It is up to them but also these are often young people surrounded by other people highly invested in their success but not necessarily in their wellbeing beyond that.

Lots of athletes have said there is a big problem and now we have a highly respected doctor saying he cannot continue as a medical professional in his role. I think that safeguarding is very important and that climbers at all levels can be vulnerable to eating disorders.

It wouldn't be right to say "let em make their own choice and bear the consequences" imo and it seems that the most qualified opinions seem to agree, or at least feel that not nearly enough is being done to keep athletes safe.

Dexter

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 481
  • Karma: +19/-0
I agree that it shouldn't just be ignored and up to them. To me this has some parallels to some countries use of steroids in Olympics. Where athletes are told to do something by a coach (take pills, or some diet) without truly understanding the implications and trusting the coach. Both examples have serious health implications but one illegal one isn't.

Duncan campbell

Offline
  • ****
  • junky
  • Posts: 752
  • Karma: +46/-2
I’d agree, adding in that in my (personal) opinion and experience, often people who are highly successful and/or obsessed/motivated often have underlying mental health issues or traumas that drive them. Not always in a totally unhealthy way and obviously not always the case.

 
But I think the “let them make their own decisions” tact leaves a lot of room for people who are more vulnerable to put performance ahead of well-being at risk.

Plus it kind of says “athletic performance is more valuable than well-being” because those who are unwilling to sacrifice well-being to gain ultimate power-weight are penalised.

Obviously there is an element to this already but within the boundaries of what is healthy for an athlete.

Well-being should always be more valuable than athletic performance.

yetix

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 605
  • Karma: +33/-0
+1 on what Duncan said. It also sounds like volker felt he had tried to do everything he could but the ifsc were just dragging their heels. Will be interested to see what happens from this as it can't exactly make them look good and surely will need a response?

Baron

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 414
  • Karma: +21/-1
Slightly on a tangent.
Interesting comment from Mark Cavendish the other day about how landing a pro team cycling contract is no longer about victories, but more about your basic numbers (your engine, if you like). Made me wonder if pro climbing will head that way (hence tenuous link to weight control in this thread). I mean, it kinda happens already in a slightly different way with social media reach trumping ascent palmares.

sirlockoff

Offline
  • *
  • regular
  • god's own rock
  • Posts: 64
  • Karma: +5/-0
  • @sirlockoff
    • Peak district bouldering sends

the IFSC has been working on new regulations such that people with low BMI (<=18) will have to undergo bunch of medical screenings (Alanna's IG)

the doctor(s) / athletes also want a RED-S testing to every athlete, which to my understanding is not synonym with disordered eating, so what we consider 'healthy looking athlete' could indeed have RED-S, and that seems quite a black box


Muenchener

Offline
  • *****
  • Trusted Users
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2692
  • Karma: +117/-0
I wonder if it's callous to say "just let them get on with it", acknowledge that minimal body fat is one key component to performance and the athletes can choose to do that and take the risks in return for greater comp success.

According to this interview with Dr Schöffl (unfortunately only in German) the athletes almost certainly aren't aware of the real risks. It's not just a case of a temporary compromise for a few competitive years. Anorexia, he says, is the #1 cause of death in young women, and he himself has had patients die or be permanently disabled by it.

Also, many of the athletes concerned are adolescents who should not be expected to make life-risking choices entirely on their own initiative, and whose coaches are to a certain degree in loco parentis and should (he said, naïvely) be concerned about their wellbeing and not just their competitive success.

SA Chris

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 29118
  • Karma: +625/-11
    • http://groups.msn.com/ChrisClix
Quote
We have developed very profound plans how to detect and help athletes with such problems. We have spent many hours in meetings and on the desk establishing a new and better system of monitoring and decision making. As a consequence, we now have the most profound data on this matter of all sport disciplines. We have pointed out the problem and possible solutions

From reading this, it looks like different options have been presented rather than just "testing for low BMI"; other testing options are probably available. Looks like all are being ignored though.

Muenchener

Offline
  • *****
  • Trusted Users
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2692
  • Karma: +117/-0
From reading this, it looks like different options have been presented rather than just "testing for low BMI"; other testing options are probably available. Looks like all are being ignored though.

Schöffl says in the interview that he'd prefer a bodyfat percentage to a BMI limit, but that there's no currently available cheap, convenient test for bodyfat that gives consistently repeatable results. He says there's some promising research in that direction currently ongoing. Meanwhile he regards a BMI limit as much better than nothing, for all BMI's limitations. But apparently BMI limit warnings/recommendations that are sent out to national federations & coaches are simply being ignored.

I suspect the IFSC's reluctance or inability to do anything more serious about enforcement is what's led to the resignations.

SA Chris

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 29118
  • Karma: +625/-11
    • http://groups.msn.com/ChrisClix
I suspect the IFSC's reluctance or inability to do anything more serious about enforcement is what's led to the resignations.

Absolutely no doubt.

steveri

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 555
  • Karma: +33/-0
  • More average than you
    • Some poor pictures
Re: just let them get on with it, I can attest that some folk with eating disorders make some pretty poor decisions.

Re: Duncan’s point, almost by definition to get to the very top you have to be uniquely obsessed. Which is why we’re generally won over by people who seem genuinely nice people with no edge… that are still utterly, utterly brilliant at what they do.

Duncan campbell

Offline
  • ****
  • junky
  • Posts: 752
  • Karma: +46/-2
So, what is it your saying exactly...?

Fiend

Offline
  • *
  • _
  • forum hero
  • Abominable sex magick practitioner and climbing heathen
  • Posts: 13364
  • Karma: +667/-67
  • Whut
Plus it kind of says “athletic performance is more valuable than well-being” because those who are unwilling to sacrifice well-being to gain ultimate power-weight are penalised.

Isn't that the truth though?? Or the natural extrapolation of performance-chasing??

IanP

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 697
  • Karma: +34/-0
Plus it kind of says “athletic performance is more valuable than well-being” because those who are unwilling to sacrifice well-being to gain ultimate power-weight are penalised.

Isn't that the truth though?? Or the natural extrapolation of performance-chasing??

I'd it really though?  Who are the incredible athletic performers who sacrificed their well being?  Tennis big 3, Usain Bolt, Serena Williams, Messi,  Fraser-Pryce ?  The ultimate athletic performance should mean managing your well being alongside the competing stresses of pushing your body to its limits.

I wonder whether there is a risk with these lower profile sports like climbing (gymnastics similarly?) to in some ways treat the athletes as replaceable objects to be pushed to or past there limits and swapped out if they break.  Compared to major sports like tennis or football where the value of the athlete is such that most people involved have a buy in to keeping them healthy and performing to their potential for the longer term.


Dac

Offline
  • *
  • regular
  • Posts: 70
  • Karma: +13/-0
I think the "athletic performance is more valuable than well-being” issue is an interesting one.

As a whole people do put a high value on athletic performance and are certainly willing for our top athletes to be highly obsessive if it results in wins/trophies/medals. For example I can remember reading that Daily Thompson used to train on Christmas Day, as his competitors would be spending the day with their families, do he was getting an extra days training over them. And I recall a commentator during a Mo Farah race mentioning that his wife was due to give birth, but if she went into labour before the race, would not be telling Mo, do he was not distracted from his run.
 Can you imagine another profession of hobby where such behaviour would be tolerated, never mind lauded? "Look love don't tell me if the baby comes, I'm really close on this 8B, and conditions look really good today."

abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4259
  • Karma: +340/-25
Being really good at a sport is surely never going to be healthy, neither mentally or physically. That doesn't mean that some limits shouldn't be in place though to protect athletes though, whether that's around drugs or around issues like RED-S

T_B

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3061
  • Karma: +148/-5
What an odd thing to say. There are loads of really good athletes who are no doubt on balance healthy. Injury is par for the course for pros, but you can say the same for amateurs in many sports (eg running, climbing).

Maybe Ondra would be better off sat on the sofa??

Bradders

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2774
  • Karma: +135/-3
Being really good at a sport is surely never going to be healthy, neither mentally or physically. That doesn't mean that some limits shouldn't be in place though to protect athletes though, whether that's around drugs or around issues like RED-S

If that is the case, and I don't think it is but anyway, then isn't that the whole point of this? I.e. basically saying that's not how it should be so let's take steps to stop it in future.

abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4259
  • Karma: +340/-25
Maybe I'm phrasing badly, I guess I don't mean that it's impossible to be an elite athlete and be "healthy", but that being an elite athlete is inherently likely to be "unhealthy" in some way. A bit like smoking is unhealthy, but you might still smoke and live until 90 or not smoke and die of lung cancer at 50.

A few examples:

https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12321/12711929/study-finds-higher-neurodegenerative-disease-risk-for-international-rugby-players-dementia-motor-neurone-disease-more-likely

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/57/1/33

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7520548/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8870309/


isn't that the whole point of this? I.e. basically saying that's not how it should be so let's take steps to stop it in future.
Yes. Same with banning PEDs - it's a way to protect athletes from themselves (or the worst parts of themselves, or pressure to do things that are very bad for them, or however you want to frame it).

Liamhutch89

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1225
  • Karma: +85/-1
"Look love don't tell me if the baby comes, I'm really close on this 8B, and conditions look really good today."

Too fucking right! The kid can wait.

Gritter

Offline
  • **
  • menacing presence
  • Posts: 180
  • Karma: +10/-13
Why not let them get on with it in a supportive and affirming manner? Coaches could facilitate the process by using regular weight checks, body fat ratios and measurements of the upper arm and thigh circumference. I for one stand by my body dysmorphic and anorexic brothers and sisters, worried parents can be reassured that 'the science' backs up a 100% affirmative approach to extreme weight loss. It will be important for all coaches to remember that questioning or challenging the beliefs of any individual identifying a 5 stone underweight gluten intolerant fat person, will be frowned upon.

Wasn't it Daley Thompson not Daily?  :coffee:

Wellsy

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1362
  • Karma: +101/-8
We're having a pretty good discussion here, or at least we were until you had to come in with an axe to grind, on account of everyone ignoring you and leaving you to have a tantrum in the last thread you frequented

SA Chris

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 29118
  • Karma: +625/-11
    • http://groups.msn.com/ChrisClix
Quite.

Fiend

Offline
  • *
  • _
  • forum hero
  • Abominable sex magick practitioner and climbing heathen
  • Posts: 13364
  • Karma: +667/-67
  • Whut
Isn't that the truth though?? Or the natural extrapolation of performance-chasing??

I'd it really though?  Who are the incredible athletic performers who sacrificed their well being?  Tennis big 3, Usain Bolt, Serena Williams, Messi,  Fraser-Pryce ?  The ultimate athletic performance should mean managing your well being alongside the competing stresses of pushing your body to its limits.

I wonder whether there is a risk with these lower profile sports like climbing (gymnastics similarly?) to in some ways treat the athletes as replaceable objects to be pushed to or past there limits and swapped out if they break.  Compared to major sports like tennis or football where the value of the athlete is such that most people involved have a buy in to keeping them healthy and performing to their potential for the longer term.
I meant for climbing in particular, so yes the examples you give for more established, not-necessarily-power-to-weight-driven sports will be different.

I am partly playing devil's advocate here of course. But then who are we to deny people their ultimate climbing performance...

"Look love don't tell me if the baby comes, I'm really close on this 8B 9A, and conditions look really good today."

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal