[abarro81]

Good post, except we all know that doing things that are fun is for losers. Start down that road and you'll end up like mr scapegoat, pontificating about the Freudian implications of spending too much time aerocapping on jugs shaped like dongs

[Mr E S Capegoat]

You clearly need to read Kuntworthy’s latest schematic Alex. Overcoming Kleinian envy which developed through witnessing parental coitus. The energy systems pathway is clear and yes it does involve the budding ‘energy system acolyte’ hanging off a big yellow cock for 15 minutes before continuing to traverse in circles for 10. While an onlooking crowd of angry Self serious ukbers call for justice.

That one’s on you btw

[SA Chris]

Can we get Jim'll Paint it to do that on the new T Shirt?

[T_B]

This is both shocking and sad. I really hope that climbing can avoid going this way

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/07/opinion/nike-running-mary-cain.html

[Mr E S Capegoat]

It seems shocking because it’s quite explicit and brought into public consciousness. A direct example of a brand ‘owning’ a person. I’m in two minds about the Red-s name. On one hand it raises awareness to sports people and navigates the potential shame of an anorexia or restrictive eating disorder diagnosis, possibly enabling ‘athletes’ to feel safer in accessing help on the other hand it’s absolutely not different on any level to an eating disorder diagnosis. Maybe it could be renamed red-L or relative energy deficiency in Life

[T_B]

It's the level of abuse from Salazar that I find shocking and the fact that this culture remains so prevalent/accepted. There are other female Nike athletes now going public basically saying "yeah we knew this abuse was going on, sorry we didn't say anything".

But yes, as you say, Nike owns them.

[Mr E S Capegoat]

It’s definitely interesting that a company at the end point of the capitalist system like Nike would employ a narcissist to do their dirty work. It’s similar to the point I was making in the other thread. The desire for perfection based on a sense of self that’s ‘held’ by others is a common theme in restrictive eating disorders. In this way the behaviour might not even have been recognised as abuse and coercive control, just ‘normal’. I’d argue you could expand this out quickly to the controlling culture as a whole and is fully present within climbing.

[Stu Littlefair]

The desire for perfection based on a sense of self that’s ‘held’ by others is a common theme in restrictive eating disorders.

It's the human condition. As you say higher up the page it's only dysfunctional if it causes dysfunction. When held in check it also drives most human endeavour, including exploration, adventure and arguably charity.

It's easy to pile onto Salazar and Nike, and their behaviour is clearly horrible. BUT, in another context, society might view this kind of pressure and perfectionism as an ideal to strive for (e.g the Apollo programme). I think this makes the issue a bit harder to react to than just an "oh, isn't this awful" response.

To drag back onto RED-S I think it's power in helping athletes deal with disorder eating without stigma makes it a worthwhile concept. But it's also the weakness of a diagnosis, since it doesn't encourage the athlete to think about other areas of live that are putting their bodies under stress.

[Mr E S Capegoat]

In this sense Salazar, Nike and society are one in the same. Under the illusion of free will the ‘athlete’ embraces their approach supported by the crowds desire to see performance and therefore experience themselves in this individual. Honnold and free solo is a good example of this in climbing, a bewildered man acting on motivations beyond his control for difficult to fully articulate reasons, held aloft by a community and idolised in this way. We all experienced a bit of what it was like to be him in the cinema. Some level of insight into this can offer a sense of freedom and opportunity to be more ‘yourself’. It’s clear many ‘great’ performances and endeavours have been undertaken in this way, smashey and nicey for example. I’d hazard that in the end the more driven and owned by the ‘other’ real person or abstraction (money, grades and it’s symbolism) the results are inevitably problematic for some if not all the people involved. Perfectionism exists because others make it so. This is a paradox in restrictive eating disorders and many other things, the society / government which is working so hard to ‘cure’ them is the very thing creating them e.g the education system

[T_B]

Dan. Get yersel to a ParkRun

[Mr E S Capegoat]

You’re taking the piss right Tom? 🤣

[webbo]

In this sense Salazar, Nike and society are one in the same. Under the illusion of free will the ‘athlete’ embraces their approach supported by the crowds desire to see performance and therefore experience themselves in this individual. Honnold and free solo is a good example of this in climbing, a bewildered man acting on motivations beyond his control for difficult to fully articulate reasons, held aloft by a community and idolised in this way. We all experienced a bit of what it was like to be him in the cinema. Some level of insight into this can offer a sense of freedom and opportunity to be more ‘yourself’. It’s clear many ‘great’ performances and endeavours have been undertaken in this way, smashey and nicey for example. I’d hazard that in the end the more driven and owned by the ‘other’ real person or abstraction (money, grades and it’s symbolism) the results are inevitably problematic for some if not all the people involved. Perfectionism exists because others make it so. This is a paradox in restrictive eating disorders and many other things, the society / government which is working so hard to ‘cure’ them is the very thing creating them e.g the education system

I was of the belief that systems tended to be a causative factor in eating disorders, often the family system.

[Mr E S Capegoat]

I think so. Family, educational, broader informing or governing, societal / cultural. Anything that ‘has’ or influences part of a person in that way. I guess trans-diagnostically it could work for lots of problems. Neurotic being ‘alienated’ from the inside world or self and ‘psychotic’ being alienated from the outside world or ‘other’ fully immersed inside your own head. Ps I don’t fully follow that broad idea and of course it’s a heuristic / oversimplification of the bio-psycho-social systems and their relative complex interactions.

[webbo]

I don’t think I ever came across an individual with eating issues who wasn’t or had been part of a dysfunctional family.

[Mr E S Capegoat]

We’re agreeing then? ✌️💗 please say yes.....

[webbo]

Did you say the same, I would have never have guessed.
Do you speak like that in real life.

[Mr E S Capegoat]

The old ukb lose-lose. To say any one system is to blame is overly simplistic without taking into consideration ideas like the nature of consciousness and the illusion of free will, predetermination, individual and broader cultural forces. Values, belief systems etc. So are the ‘family’ to blame? Only in that they represent the broader fucking mess in their dysfunctional behaviour. Is it the government / society / culture to blame? well we live in a performance orientated world where winning or getting your ‘medal’  whatever that might mean, is held paramount. Is genetics to blame, well in some part of course people can be more obsessional or ‘driven’ whatever. So are there a significant amount of climbers out there operating in this ‘system’ of course. And to be honest, so what? Every time somebody posts their weekly report including weight etc in power club, the whole thing is so predictable because it is a predetermined set of behaviours which have been instigated by all these driving factors and assimilated in the unconscious before they’ve even happened.
Jeez webbo I thought we could become solid pals there for a minute

[webbo]

Well I suppose I could be become pals with someone as well balanced as your good self.
Well balanced as in a chip on either shoulder.
Fuck me Dan you need to lighten up. I have climbed for about 47 years if you can call it climbing. These days I spend most of my time pissing about on a piece of overhanging plywood in the garage believing I’m training to get better or futility not any worse.
I would love to be doing what Jimmy Webb or Daniel Wood are doing not because they are the driven to be the best in the world by a society which thrives on elitism.
Because those moves they do just look fantastic and being able to do them must be out of this world.

[Mr E S Capegoat]

Cheers for the advice. Although I’m not sure ‘Webb n Woods’ are real people? A bit like that ‘Shultez’ bloke. Figments of their own imagination.

[Mr E S Capegoat]

Actually one thing about this -
When I responded to Tom’s post about ‘shocking and sad news’ with a well thought out and in depth reply to the best of my ability I get told to lighten up etc when it isn’t in-line with peoples thinking. Here’s the alternate response

‘Ooooo yes balsalsa fellah, shocking yes very terrible. Nike should give him the sack. How did some one like him ever get that job. Our young athletes need proper training to win medals. Ooooo terribly sad etc... I blame the parents and possibly teachers cos they’re all rubbish these days....’ ‘now that Jimmy Webb and Danny woods are the real thing, they’re not even aware of climbing as a ‘thing’ just turned up to a rock one day and celebrated getting to the top... amazing I’d like to be like them etc... true role models and they drink beer and eat macdonalds.... proper climbers’

[Ged]

What happened Alex?

*seemed like a reasonable thread to me all sides getting along, apart from that ged bloke seeing his arse about mental health / eating disorders.

You seem to get quite angry quite quickly.

[moose]

This latest Ross Tucker "The Science of Sport Podcast" might be of interest.  I've not listened myself but the preceding ones in the series - on talent development, cheating / doping, and the evolution and effectiveness of the Nike Vaporfly were excellent.

https://play.acast.com/s/realscienceofsport/4676edf0-7f8a-4208-8464-0b929be25d66

https://player.fm/series/the-real-science-of-sport-podcast/mary-cain-challenging-the-culture-of-fat-shaming-and-elite-performance

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mary-cain-challenging-culture-fat-shaming-elite-performance/id1461719225?i=1000457810935

[Fiend]

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose 

[Johnny Brown]

Who's playing Gill's role nowadays?

[Duma]

As mentioned on the current comps thread, Volker Schöffl has resigned from IFSC Medical Commission in protest at inaction on RED-S

https://www.instagram.com/p/CuUH0oIt1Ve/

As a consequence of the non-action of the IFSC I resign with immediate effect from my voluntary position in the IFSC Medical Commission.
Hereby I am drawing the same consequence as our MedCom president. We share the opinion that as medical doctors we can no longer accept the non-action of the IFSC concerning the RED-S problems of our athletes.

I have been a #MedCom member since the inauguration of the IFSC in 2009. During that time frame we achieved many goals for the well-being of our athletes. However, the current politics with regards to RED-S cannot be accepted. We have worked for more than 10 years on the topic. We have collected numerous data, have measured BMI/MI at every WorldCup last year and have developed very profound plans how to detect and help athletes with such problems. We have spent many hours in meetings and on the desk establishing a new and better system of monitoring and decision making. As a consequence, we now have the most profound data on this matter of all sport disciplines. We have pointed out the problem and possible solutions to the sports director and board continuously and repeatedly. However, the only acknowledgement we have received has consisted of defamation and discouragement. In short, the IFSC may not be willing at all to undertake further action regarding this important health issue of its athletes and is acitvely delaying and slowing down any decisions that could lead to much needed action.

As medical doctors we cannot accept this any longer.

Sport climbing has a RED-S problem.
Possible solutions to detect, evaluate and help critical athletes were developed through the Medical Commission.
These solutions have been and are being ignored. No further action is taken by the IFSC.

For the wellbeeing of our athletes and the development of this sport, I cannot take any responsibility on this matter and am forced to resign.

Many thanks to my long-time colleagues and friends in the Medical Commission for their work and efforts, especially to our president Dr.Eugen Burtscher.

I hope this step may help the cause and our athletes but I know it won‘t.

Volker Schöffl – climbing doctor