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B grades the Mellow lot seem to be using (Read 11635 times)

petejh

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You really choose some odd hills to die on Pete  :lol:

Haha yeah I do. I donít really care as much as it might look, I just think all grading systems are arbitrary and inherently inaccurate, and donít see this as any worse than others. I think people get attached to ideas for no logical reason.
Thereís an attractive simplicity about counting systems using base 10
(And except for the almost unique case of font with tons of easier boulders with friendly landings where else in the world is font 2,3 and 4 actually used/useful?)

teestub

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Ah so itís base 10, So really youíre a frustrated V grades fan, bewildered by the increasing worldwide acceptance of an esoteric alphanumeric (plus symbols) system?  ;D

Duma

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(And except for the almost unique case of font with tons of easier boulders with friendly landings where else in the world is font 2,3 and 4 actually used/useful?)
Burbage Valley?

BID

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Big slab higgar tor Font 4+
Beyond the end - burbage north 3+
There are things which are incredible and below font 6A.


reeve

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I donít really care as much as it might look, I just think all grading systems are arbitrary and inherently inaccurate, and donít see this as any worse than others. I think people get attached to ideas for no logical reason.
Thereís an attractive simplicity about counting systems using base 10
(And except for the almost unique case of font with tons of easier boulders with friendly landings where else in the world is font 2,3 and 4 actually used/useful?)

I'm sure you're right that people get attached to either v-grades or Font grades for little more than what they are familiar with. However, this system clearly is worse than others. I doubt that Mellow would be as enthusiastic about a system which went:

B1 = v0-
B2 = v0- hard - v0
B3 = v0 hard - v0+
B4 = v0+ hard - v1
B5 = v1 hard - v2
B6 = v2 hard - v3
B7 = v4 - v5
B8 = v6 - v7
B9 = v8 - v9
B10 =  >v9

Will Hunt

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(And except for the almost unique case of font with tons of easier boulders with friendly landings where else in the world is font 2,3 and 4 actually used/useful?)


Errrrm. Almost every climbing area has plenty to go at at these grades. Yorkshire Grit has a number of crags where these and some grade 5s and low 6s predominate and they're greatly enjoyed by beginners/less able climbers. To lump all of those grades into one is very twatty. You and I might not climb them much but there are thousands out there who do. You're just not going to bump into them at LPT or the Snore. Remember also that most highballs are actually quite easy in the grand scheme of things, just scary. So old VS and HVS solos that are now highballed will be Font 4 or something like that. There's loads of them about.

It really doesn't matter to me what the numbers are. If everyone started calling 7A/V6 climbs a "B3" or a "B10" it doesn't really matter. You might have to go into negative figures for easier climbs which would be a bit insulting to the less able. The real problem is in taking a perfectly acceptable system and trying to replace it with one which has almost no resolution in the grade spectrum that 99% of climbers operate. It's thick as pig shit and cuntish to boot.

Given that the proponents of this new system are only able to lead the globetrotting lifestyles that they do by marketing products to the punter masses, it's pretty galling to see them treat their fans in such a way.

Almost as bad as this is the fact that they moot the idea on an Instagram story so there's no place for it to be pulled apart in public other than on separate forums like these (which barely anyone looks at).

jwi

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(And except for the almost unique case of font with tons of easier boulders with friendly landings where else in the world is font 2,3 and 4 actually used/useful?)

When I'm in great shape it's very hard for me to tell the difference between a sustained 6c and a sustained 7b. So is there anywhere in the world were grades like 3a-6b are used and actually useful for climbers?

I imagine the same applies for Adam Ondra but for 8a and 8c. Maybe Ondra, Megos and Ghisolfi should introduce a new grading scale where anything below 7b is 0, stuff up to 8a is C1, 8b to 8c C2, 8c+ is C3, 9a C4, 9a/a+ C5, 9b is C6, 9b/b+ C7, 9b+ C8, hard 9b+/c C9 and 9c C10. C could stand for ďcuntĒ e.g.

JackPal

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Seems a shit idea to me. Like Reeve said I doubt theyíd like that as an alternative. And yeah #prayforfontgrades

teestub

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B1 = v0-
B2 = v0- hard - v0
B3 = v0 hard - v0+
B4 = v0+ hard - v1
B5 = v1 hard - v2
B6 = v2 hard - v3
B7 = v4 - v5
B8 = v6 - v7
B9 = v8 - v9
B10 =  >v9

This would be a good scale for indoor problems a la the original BUK, except it tops out at v8+, everyone knows thereís nothing harder than v8+ inside!
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 01:13:36 pm by teestub »

crzylgs

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I'm trying to think if there is another sport where the elite level athletes deem it necessary to create their own system of scoring? I realise most sports are more binary and less arbitrary than climbing grades... Point stands that the elite are there to push the max grades, score the most points, run the furthest in the least time,loft more of the heavy things etc. Something for us mortals to aspire to.

Seems like a total douche Bro flex move, that succeeds only in failing to serve the community as a whole.

SA Chris

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Maybe they could just stick with Vs and add a "+" and "-" for harder and easier ones in that grade, or perhaps an a,b,c,d or even a .1, .2, .3 up to .9 if they wanted to get really anal.

Actually. Nah, that would never work, no-one has done anything like that in climbing.

teestub

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a .1, .2, .3 up to .9 if they wanted to get really anal.

I canít remember which American climber I was listening to on a podcast, when they were describing that they had assumed 5.11 would be the next climb for them to try after 5.1 on the Yosemite Decimal Scale.

Nutty

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Hopefully one day Lattice will use all their data to produce an SI bouldering grade based on a platinum-iridium reference problem kept in a Sheffield cellar and V/B grades will be as relevant as furlongs, chains and bushels. That or use font grades.

Stabbsy

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It's thick as pig shit and cuntish to boot.
I quite like to employ the "Would I Say It To Their Face?" filter when posting on the internet. While I agree it's not the best idea, I'm not sure abuse is the way to go - particularly on a forum where they have no presence/right to reply. They might not always come across well on social media, but I could say the same about some of the people on here. Sadly, I think the vehemence of some of the responses on here are a reference to who said it rather than what's been said.

Give them the benefit of the doubt for a second and try thinking about what problem they might be trying to solve. Maybe they think that grades above 8A/V11 have got too compressed and they want to widen the grade boundaries of these? As a group, they are in a fairly unique position to understand this issue given the breadth of problems that they've done across a lot of continents. The conflation of the lower grades might just be a poorly thought out afterthought.

I seem to think there was a similar (but opposite) problem with sport grades in the 90s, where the boundaries of 8c/+ got too wide. This was solved by upgrading routes to even things out a bit - stuff like La Rambla and some other Huber routes are all 9a now. If they are saying they want to widen boundaries, an alternative might be to downgrade a whole load of problems, but this would be really hard to do in practice and the backlash would be something else!

I'm just hypothesising, so maybe it is just dick-waving, etc. or maybe it's just a badly thought through solution to a real problem that the Mellow lot perceive. Maybe if the issue with granularity of lower grade problems was fixed then it's a decent, workable idea? I'm unlikely to ever know as I don't climb >8A, but I am willing to keep an open mind and let things play their course.

As Pete succinctly put it :-
I just think all grading systems are arbitrary and inherently inaccurate, and don’t see this as any worse than others.
Grading is not a science, it's an art. We subjectively decide how hard a problem is based on how it feels compared to some other problems, which were also graded subjectively. The moment we think it is any more accurate/definite than this, we're taking the whole thing too seriously.

Bradders

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It's thick as pig shit and cuntish to boot.
I quite like to employ the "Would I Say It To Their Face?" filter when posting on the internet.

Have you met Will before?

Stabbsy

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It's thick as pig shit and cuntish to boot.
I quite like to employ the "Would I Say It To Their Face?" filter when posting on the internet.

Have you met Will before?
Yes, he came across as quite polite and mild mannered.

petejh

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It's thick as pig shit and cuntish to boot.
I quite like to employ the "Would I Say It To Their Face?" filter when posting on the internet.

Have you met Will before?

Brilliant :lol:

Will Hunt

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You'll notice that I didn't call them twats or cunts, I said that their idea was twatty and cuntish, which is actually quite different. If I was to meet them, which is unlikely, and the topic was raised, I'd certainly let them know what a dumb idea I thought it was.

With this thing coming straight after the "Fred Nicole is holding back climbing" debacle, I think a few choice words aren't completely amiss. The bit that really annoyed me about that was that a loose association of good climbers were trying to unilaterally lay down a new set of rules for everyone else to follow. What was it? "Closed projects aren't a thing in our generation" or something along those lines. And now the same thing again.

Taking your idea of the benefit of their system, let's look at it:
B4 = v9 - v10 = 2 grades into 1
B5 = v11 - v12 easy = 1 and a bit grades into 1
B6 = v12 hard - v13 = 1 grade into 1
B7 = v13 hard - v14 = 1 grade into 1
B8 = v14 hard - v15 = 1 and a bit grades into 1
B9 = v16 = 1 grade into 1
B10 = v17 = 1 grade into 1

So the most affected climbs are all of those below V11 (which affects the vast majority of climbs and climbers) where the resolution is halved. The width of most upper grade brackets aren't actually affected (only V11/soft V12 and hard V14/V15), they've just been shifted a bit.

It sounds like what they actually mean is that there are some climbs knocking around which are graded V12 but feel more similar to V11s (i.e. they need a downgrade), but rather than propose up/downgrades for some problems, they'd like to have a new grading system please.

Instagram is such a circle jerk environment that I don't doubt there will be lots of people congratulating them on their marvellous idea.

 :wank:

abarro81

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B4 = v9 - v10 = 2 grades into 1

2.5 grades really, since that would include the top half of 7B+ too.

andy_e

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It's thick as pig shit and cuntish to boot.
I quite like to employ the "Would I Say It To Their Face?" filter when posting on the internet.

Have you met Will before?
Yes, he came across as quite polite and mild mannered.

He's a secret cunt.

teestub

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Instagram is such a circle jerk environment that I don't doubt there will be lots of people congratulating them on their marvellous idea.

 :wank:

Iím sorry you donít get more likes Will, maybe you need more hashtags or photos of you in your budgie smugglers 😄

Will Hunt

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It's thick as pig shit and cuntish to boot.
I quite like to employ the "Would I Say It To Their Face?" filter when posting on the internet.

Have you met Will before?
Yes, he came across as quite polite and mild mannered.

He's a secret cunt.

I've never made a secret of being a cunt.

tomtom

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Instagram is such a circle jerk environment that I don't doubt there will be lots of people congratulating them on their marvellous idea.

 :wank:

Iím sorry you donít get more likes Will, maybe you need more hashtags or photos of you in your budgie smugglers 😄

Maybe people thing youíre a dating site for curlers?

petejh

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Will why don't you reply on their insta page with the replies you've posted here? It's funny, and maybe they'd appreciate a different point of view from outside their circle of jerking?... (And if not, it'd be funny to read the beef..)

I did say that I thought it'd be a 'half-decent suggestion' if they hadn't condensed more at lower than higher grades, perhaps not expressed very well:
Quote
I think that if they'd started at V1-V2 and suggested two font grades per one B grade all the way to B10 with 10 being a hypothetical max like on a loudspeaker, instead of condensing at v11 then it would have been a half decent suggestion.

BTW I'm looking forward to your angry letter to my local walls (Boardroom and The Beacon) for reducing my hard-earned 3 different font grades to mere single colour bands. CUNTISHNESS!


Fiend

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They're called circuits I think?

I'm pretty sure I've replied thrice to this thread without it showing up...

 

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