[T_B]

Blimey "Teaboy", you're not this curmudgeonly in real life

Sorry, just spat out my cup of tea!

[highrepute]

is this what moving to deepest darkest Lancashire does to a man.......

Must be a lot busier at Brownstones these days

[SA Chris]

Whilst this is true, with UK sport there are pretty limited options for large parts of the year. A busy Kilnsey might not be a great crag any more, but a wet Giggleswick, damp Cornice and underwater Diamond are even worse... I can fully understand why one might prefer the option of not getting more people into climbing to the option of having to abandon the best crags in favour of esoteric choss because too many people got into climbing.

I was referring to the point in case of Almscliff. With a bit of effort from Leeds you could find a quiet dry bit of grit on a weekend if you tried / wanted. When I lived there I spent so many evenings that i would actively avoid it on a busy weekend.

Yes, there are indeed sometimes instances when there are no choices but going to the honeypots, but there are also many cases when a slightly more experienced climbed could make an educated choice if they bothered doing so, and were so bothered by the masses as to complain about it.

[Will Hunt]

Just skimming the last posts on this topic and I think I got the gist.
I'll probably see Spidermonkey at the wall tonight so I'll try and cure him of his optimism there. Not everyone wants their lives enriched by climbing. I tried to enrich my wife's life with it and it ended in tears. Literally.

Teaboy, I'm not following your argument there. It sounds like you're implying that the people who are new to climbing are getting into it because the BMC encouraged them to. It seems pretty clear to me that the increased participation is down to a combination of two factors which have only aligned in the last 10 years.
1. Climbing is visible and looks appealing.
2. Climbing is very accessible.

It used to be that only condition 1 was met. Bonners and Brown and Dawes climbed routes on the telly. Steve McClure bat hung at Malham. Destivelle and Tom Cruise campused up dusty looking desert rocks. If anybody fancied a crack at it themselves they might join a local club and were subjected to the weirdos who inhabit such institutions (it's OK, I can say it, I am one of those people) and the expensive gear they'd have to buy. Otherwise they might pop into their local climbing wall and were immediately asked to tie a figure of eight knot or pay £70 to go on a course. At this point, lots of people will have given up. Not to mention that climbing was always bigged up to be really death-defyingly dangerous and this will have put lots and lots of people off. Bouldering is actively sold as being very very safe.

Now we have bouldering-only walls, and the only safety requirement is that you should recognise that falling onto your head may cause you serious harm. Then you're away, and once you've had that first sweet, sweet sup of climbing nectar you're on an ever more slippery slope to buying a pad and going to Almscliff so that you too can join the ranks of those who have got mud and tick marks on the rock before you.

The fact that these two conditions are now met (which the BMC has very little to do with) means that the meteoric rise in popularity of the sport is inevitable, and with the Olympics in 2020 it's clear that it has not yet reached it's peak. At this moment in time, I don't really want to see the BMC putting afterburners on this phenomenon and actively encouraging people to take up climbing. What the BMC should absolutely be doing is trying to engage all those people who have started climbing so that they can fill their heads with messages about good practice and not just going to the honeypots. And taking their money and using it to fund access work.

[spidermonkey09]

If the BMC sees it as it's mission to enrich the lives of those who have never thought about climbing why not give money to a homeless charity, that way it can reach the people who's lives really need enriching without impacting the enjoyment of its members. Besides, how many of these poor lost souls do you bring in to the church, who do you leave behind to endure a life of misery/cross training/yogalates?

Still don't see who is winning with more and more people going to a finite number of crags.
You cannot educate everyone, even if you could not everyone will abide? Besides it's not about behaviour but numbers.
Other than a gut feeling why do you think there will be a trad resurgence? Andi if there is it won't stop people sport climbing g or bouldering. I font know anyone who has started climbing in the l AST 5years who goes read climbing.
I'm too old to wait, I'm falling apart as it is, and to your final point, I'll repeat, it's not about the behaviour but the numbers.

Right can't write anymore, work to do and I understand 73% want more people climbing so no point me continuing to argue my minority position.

Ahh I don't buy the 'whataboutery' line of argument I'm afraid. The fact that not everyone can enjoy what Will referred to as 'the sweet sweet climbing nectar' is no reason not to encourage some people to do so.

Re: potential future trad resurgence, I think this because what we're experiencing at the moment is a bubble, and I think eventually the bubble will burst/fizzle out. Secondly, I think a lot of people who go climbing outside are motivated by something more than that sweet gram post and footage of the send. Perhaps optimistically, I think a lot of them are attracted by the idea of being somewhere beautiful outside and the sense of solitude/escape that climbing provides. I think as bouldering become more popular people will move towards wild bouldering/chilled out bolt clipping/trad climbing. Just a hunch though, as you say, although I know plenty of psyched trad climbers who are new to the sport so there is some anecdotal evidence.

[spidermonkey09]

[/quote]

Not sure that analogy works - what does the BMC win by backing the horse as opposed to staying outside of the bookies altogether?

[/quote]

I would argue that by presenting themselves as the front of the movement rather than being reluctantly dragged along behind, the BMC place themselves in pole position to benefit from vast amounts of goodwill, increased member subs, more influence by being able to convincingly claim to speak for the community en masse, and hopefully more disposable income/bargaining power to invest in buying crags, access negotiations and agreements enshrined in law, which I think would benefit everyone. Just my view though

[galpinos]

Just skimming the last posts on this topic and I think I got the gist.

I think you are missing Teaboy's point. He's saying he believes the BMC should NOT be actively trying to increase participation. The statement quoted above implies they are/will do in the future.

Your point that participation is increasing and we should convert those new participants to BMC members I'm sure is something he would agree with, but that's nothing to do with his point.

Personally, I think there is a bit o a bubble and I think a lot of the increase in participation from climbing walls will be short term for the individuals involved. I predict a lot of people getting into bouldering, getting obsessed and making fast gains only to plateau/get injured and move onto another pastime. It seems like a path to entry that will produce fewer "lifers" than the more traditional routes.

[Will Hunt]

If the BMC sees it as it's mission to enrich the lives of those who have never thought about climbing why not give money to a homeless charity, that way it can reach the people who's lives really need enriching without impacting the enjoyment of its members. Besides, how many of these poor lost souls do you bring in to the church, who do you leave behind to endure a life of misery/cross training/yogalates?

Still don't see who is winning with more and more people going to a finite number of crags.
You cannot educate everyone, even if you could not everyone will abide? Besides it's not about behaviour but numbers.
Other than a gut feeling why do you think there will be a trad resurgence? Andi if there is it won't stop people sport climbing g or bouldering. I font know anyone who has started climbing in the l AST 5years who goes read climbing.
I'm too old to wait, I'm falling apart as it is, and to your final point, I'll repeat, it's not about the behaviour but the numbers.

Right can't write anymore, work to do and I understand 73% want more people climbing so no point me continuing to argue my minority position.

Ahh I don't buy the 'whataboutery' line of argument I'm afraid. The fact that not everyone can enjoy what Will referred to as 'the sweet sweet climbing nectar' is no reason not to encourage some people to do so.

Re: potential future trad resurgence, I think this because what we're experiencing at the moment is a bubble, and I think eventually the bubble will burst/fizzle out. Secondly, I think a lot of people who go climbing outside are motivated by something more than that sweet gram post and footage of the send. Perhaps optimistically, I think a lot of them are attracted by the idea of being somewhere beautiful outside and the sense of solitude/escape that climbing provides. I think as bouldering become more popular people will move towards wild bouldering/chilled out bolt clipping/trad climbing. Just a hunch though, as you say, although I know plenty of psyched trad climbers who are new to the sport so there is some anecdotal evidence.

No diss, Jim, but I think a lot of what you've written there is very naïve 

[Will Hunt]

Those comparing the growth in popularity to an economic bubble may wish to be mindful of the fact that a bubble occurs when a population heavily over-invests in an asset which cannot sustain such a high level of investment, and reflect on what this might mean for climbing on crags where damage to the rock is irreversible.

[spidermonkey09]

If the BMC sees it as it's mission to enrich the lives of those who have never thought about climbing why not give money to a homeless charity, that way it can reach the people who's lives really need enriching without impacting the enjoyment of its members. Besides, how many of these poor lost souls do you bring in to the church, who do you leave behind to endure a life of misery/cross training/yogalates?

Still don't see who is winning with more and more people going to a finite number of crags.
You cannot educate everyone, even if you could not everyone will abide? Besides it's not about behaviour but numbers.
Other than a gut feeling why do you think there will be a trad resurgence? Andi if there is it won't stop people sport climbing g or bouldering. I font know anyone who has started climbing in the l AST 5years who goes read climbing.
I'm too old to wait, I'm falling apart as it is, and to your final point, I'll repeat, it's not about the behaviour but the numbers.

Right can't write anymore, work to do and I understand 73% want more people climbing so no point me continuing to argue my minority position.

Ahh I don't buy the 'whataboutery' line of argument I'm afraid. The fact that not everyone can enjoy what Will referred to as 'the sweet sweet climbing nectar' is no reason not to encourage some people to do so.

Re: potential future trad resurgence, I think this because what we're experiencing at the moment is a bubble, and I think eventually the bubble will burst/fizzle out. Secondly, I think a lot of people who go climbing outside are motivated by something more than that sweet gram post and footage of the send. Perhaps optimistically, I think a lot of them are attracted by the idea of being somewhere beautiful outside and the sense of solitude/escape that climbing provides. I think as bouldering become more popular people will move towards wild bouldering/chilled out bolt clipping/trad climbing. Just a hunch though, as you say, although I know plenty of psyched trad climbers who are new to the sport so there is some anecdotal evidence.

No diss, Jim, but I think a lot of what you've written there is very naïve 

Fair enough; I'm probably too idealistic! As ever the truth is probably somewhere between the two extremes.

[teestub]

I agree that it should not be the BMC's mission to grow the sport, rather it should try and grow the number of members within existing participants and spend the money on Access and Education. That is the only way I can see outdoor climbing being sustainable in the UK if growth continues at its current pace.

 This sums up my feelings on the matter well: Let the growth happen (or not happen) organically, but try and increase the %age of climbers that are members to increase funding, rather than trying to increase the number of climbers to achieve the same aim.

[Oldmanmatt]

If the BMC sees it as it's mission to enrich the lives of those who have never thought about climbing why not give money to a homeless charity, that way it can reach the people who's lives really need enriching without impacting the enjoyment of its members. Besides, how many of these poor lost souls do you bring in to the church, who do you leave behind to endure a life of misery/cross training/yogalates?

Still don't see who is winning with more and more people going to a finite number of crags.
You cannot educate everyone, even if you could not everyone will abide? Besides it's not about behaviour but numbers.
Other than a gut feeling why do you think there will be a trad resurgence? Andi if there is it won't stop people sport climbing g or bouldering. I font know anyone who has started climbing in the l AST 5years who goes read climbing.
I'm too old to wait, I'm falling apart as it is, and to your final point, I'll repeat, it's not about the behaviour but the numbers.

Right can't write anymore, work to do and I understand 73% want more people climbing so no point me continuing to argue my minority position.

Ahh I don't buy the 'whataboutery' line of argument I'm afraid. The fact that not everyone can enjoy what Will referred to as 'the sweet sweet climbing nectar' is no reason not to encourage some people to do so.

Re: potential future trad resurgence, I think this because what we're experiencing at the moment is a bubble, and I think eventually the bubble will burst/fizzle out. Secondly, I think a lot of people who go climbing outside are motivated by something more than that sweet gram post and footage of the send. Perhaps optimistically, I think a lot of them are attracted by the idea of being somewhere beautiful outside and the sense of solitude/escape that climbing provides. I think as bouldering become more popular people will move towards wild bouldering/chilled out bolt clipping/trad climbing. Just a hunch though, as you say, although I know plenty of psyched trad climbers who are new to the sport so there is some anecdotal evidence.

No diss, Jim, but I think a lot of what you've written there is very naïve 

Fair enough; I'm probably too idealistic! As ever the truth is probably somewhere between the two extremes.

Nah, you’re fine.

I wrote about this somewhere else (or possibly earlier in this thread, cannot be arsed to find it).
Like several others here, I’ve been climbing since the mid ‘70s. I have heard all of this before. Transistor radios became Boomboxes, became Bluetooth speakers. Corona bottles became Coke cans, became protein bar wrappers.
People don’t bury their shit.
People leave gates open.
Apparently, the latest crop of delicate snowdrops, can’t cope with mud. Buy some wellies ffs.
Numbers go up, numbers go down.
(Can anyone confirm/deny that participation per capita population has significantly increased? Because that’s the real test. Up to a point, increased participation is just a matter of increased population).
Access is always threatened. Has been denied in many places. Honey pots are honey pots (until people start to say “not going to “X” in this weather, it’ll be heaving”).
How many surfers here recognise that sentiment?


The BMC should absolutely be the primary route for newbies into climbing outdoors, along with bearing responsibility for educating those newbies.
As does every other experienced climber and wall owner/operator.

We live in a crowded little lump of dirt stuck in the North Atlantic. It rains, often. We have limited opportunity and space. If you think you stand any chance of preserving some idealistic realm, where only the chosen few venture into the great outdoors; you’re living in cloud cuckoo.

I remember sitting at Stanage one day ~89ish, idly debating with my mate (as we queued, three groups deep), whether we could actually walk the entire crag length, standing on punters heads, without touching the ground.
I wasn’t allowed to test it.

Eventually, some form of regulation will be needed. That’s just how the world works.
In the boating world, around the French Med, the numbers and idiocy reached a point where the authorities stepped in and began demanding qualifications and insurance from boaters.

Good.

Recreational diving has become similar.

Even better.

This idea that climbers can somehow fly under the radar forever, that the BMC should be some minor guardian of arcane rites and rituals, or that we should all become some Masonic brotherhood, where only the chosen might be admitted; sucks balls.
(That’s how certain people in this debate sound, not point at anyone inparticular. Individuals express various parts of that image and that’s how it assembles, as an argument, to me).

Those who care, will continue to fight the access battles, the behavior battles.
Those who truely love the life, will be in that camp. Those who don’t will drift off again, to other activities, just as they always have.

[abarro81]

I'll reply properly when on pc but almost all all of that post strikes me as poorly thought out I'm afraid

[Oldmanmatt]

I'll reply properly when on pc but almost all all of that post strikes me as poorly thought out I'm afraid

I’d accept flippant, bordering on apathetic...

Go for it, change my mind; dispel my apathy.
 

[highrepute]

I'll reply properly when on pc but almost all all of that post strikes me as poorly thought out I'm afraid

I’d accept flippant, bordering on apathetic...

Go for it, change my mind; dispel my apathy.
 

I thought you made some good points, look forward to hearing Alex's response.

[Paul B]

I was referring to the point in case of Almscliff. With a bit of effort from Leeds you could find a quiet dry bit of grit on a weekend if you tried / wanted. When I lived there I spent so many evenings that i would actively avoid it on a busy weekend.

Honeypots are so for a reason, whether it be they remain dry longer than other crags (or dry faster), are within close proximity of a large populous etc. so whilst in some scenarios it may be feasible to go and find somewhere else, there are plenty where that isn't feasible. Like others, I've had issue with the "go somewhere else" attitude of those who see growth as a positive. Selfishly, why would I fund that (or in response to Matt, why would I seek to accelerate that)?

In agreement with Barrows; sport climbing options in the UK are limited. If you want to see crags under pressure I suggest you look at the Yorkshire limestone when Peak lime is wet.

I also don't feel the BMC have a decent process for dealing with issues as they unfold (it's too reactive). The rise in accessibility of climbing has been apparent for a fair amount of time IMO, yet I've not seen much (I may have missed it?) in the way of trying to bridge the knowledge gap with people entering 'the sport' from a less traditional route (Whitehouses seems to have perhaps stoked this fire a little).

Ultimately I can't see how until the impact of growth and decent strategies for managing such growth have been implemented any action that actively seeks to grow 'the sport' can be undertaken in good faith (for fear of irreversible access issues).

[Yossarian]

One minute we’re talking about how to politely persuade some people not to walk on a wall, the next we’re proposing permit access to the countryside, and regulation to enforce compulsory insurance and qualifications for climbing small pieces of rock. Because that’s what you’re implying is inevitable, aren’t you, Matt? I love the way it only ever takes you about ten minutes to decide the only possible outcome is some sort of apocalyptic catastrophe.

Any of that is far bigger than the BMC anyway.

As a lifetime resident of Cloud Cuckoo Land, it strikes me that a policy of polite but persistent education / outreach using modern methods and a well-judged voice is infinitely preferable.

[SA Chris]

I was referring to the point in case of Almscliff. With a bit of effort from Leeds you could find a quiet dry bit of grit on a weekend if you tried / wanted. When I lived there I spent so many evenings that i would actively avoid it on a busy weekend.

Honeypots are so for a reason, whether it be they remain dry longer than other crags (or dry faster), are within close proximity of a large populous etc. so whilst in some scenarios it may be feasible to go and find somewhere else, there are plenty where that isn't feasible. Like others, I've had issue with the "go somewhere else" attitude of those who see growth as a positive. Selfishly, why would I fund that (or in response to Matt, why would I seek to accelerate that)?

In agreement with Barrows; sport climbing options in the UK are limited. If you want to see crags under pressure I suggest you look at the Yorkshire limestone when Peak lime is wet.

Did you deliberately ignore the next paragraph where I said.

Yes, there are indeed sometimes instances when there are no choices but going to the honeypots, but there are also many cases when a slightly more experienced climbed could make an educated choice if they bothered doing so, and were so bothered by the masses as to complain about it.

[shark]

Also participation is normally taken to mean introducing new people to an activity but could also be retaining people from leaving it or existing participants do more.

An extreme view is that anything positive that the BMC does or says could be deemed pro-participative. With it being such a trigger point for people like Teaboy clarity was sought and gained from the ORG as without it the direction and decisions on work programmes become muddled and potentially political

Hi Paul - Just to add to what I said before quoted above until there is clearer guidance the BMC office will continue to work in a fog and the staff have to second guess what types of increased participation are objectionable and what constitutes pro-participation and how it practically applies to our work whether that's clubs support, youth work, motivational films, inclusiveness projects, alpine instruction lectures, talent development etc etc.

Overall it is quite frankly weird that a climbing organisation wouldn't champion  climbing and promote participation. What the ORG has said is they think we can do that but with a few caveats.

You can't have a policy that is not for participation or not against it (Schrodingers cat?) as that is just the kind of cop out that has created the muddled messes we have currently.

If we are for it with caveats we can base actions and decisions around it and similarly if we are against. The membership survey indicated that the majority are in favour of pro-participation overall.   

[teestub]

Overall it is quite frankly weird that a climbing organisation wouldn't champion  climbing and promote participation. What the ORG has said is they think we can do that but with a few caveats.

You can't have a policy that is not for participation or not against it (Schrodingers cat?) as that is just the kind of cop out that has created the muddled messes we have currently.

As has been noted by T_B and others, the Fell Runners Association stance is one that could be considered:

The Environment
Fell running is perhaps unique amongst sports in that it does not seek to attract ever-greater numbers of participants. The reason for this policy is that we have to balance our sporting interests with the impact on the environment. The sad fact is that the hills of Britain simply will not cope with ever-increasing pounding of feet. Protecting the environment is one of our primary aims. We continually liaise with agencies and landowners over access and racing over environmentally sensitive areas. The Fell Runners Association will continue to protect your interests in these and many other matters.

http://www.fellrunner.org.uk/join-the-fra.php

If I had my chance to redo the Membership Survey now after having taken the time to think more deeply about it, and following the destruction of Whitehouses, my answers to the participation section would certainly be different!

[abarro81]

If I had my chance to redo the Membership Survey now after having taken the time to think more deeply about it, and following the destruction of Whitehouses, my answers to the participation section would certainly be different!

+1

[abarro81]

In agreement with Barrows; sport climbing options in the UK are limited. If you want to see crags under pressure I suggest you look at the Yorkshire limestone when Peak lime is wet.

Did you deliberately ignore the next paragraph where I said.

Yes, there are indeed sometimes instances when there are no choices but going to the honeypots, but there are also many cases when a slightly more experienced climbed could make an educated choice if they bothered doing so, and were so bothered by the masses as to complain about it.

Thing is, people already do that all the time. Loads of people wont go to Plantation on a nice-weather weekend for that reason. Loads wont go to Malham when it's clear it's prime-time for that reason... If those 'best avoided' days/weekends become more and more prevalent it will suck more and more. So yes, you can avoid these issues by going elsewhere sometimes, but fundamentally if you're a UK sport climber who likes to climb outside for as much of the year as possible, doesn't like driving for 5 hours each way and climbs in the 8s then options do become limited. Sure, drive further etc... but that still sucks, and IMO it's perfectly fine to think that you don't have some moral obligation to screw yourself over by deliberately increasing the amount of sucky busy days at the few good sport crags we have...

[petejh]

...
At the risk of sounding like an incurable optimist, I think this is a plus side. A lot of people were out having a good time, there wasn't a bluetooth speaker to be seen, and hopefully those indulging in fuckwittery were called out, reflect on their actions and be better next time. Plus, I was one of the last to leave after a lovely half an hour soloing around in the twilight in perfect solitude. Things could be a lot worse.

[modernkoan]If a lone boulderer turns on his bluetooth speaker at an empty crag, does it make a sound...?[/modernkoan]

[abarro81]

I was too hasty Matt, I don't disagree with quite as much of your post as I first thought, but anyway...
(I'll not put IMO after everything I right, but for clarity we can assume that everything below is caveated as IMO)

Numbers go up, numbers go down.
(Can anyone confirm/deny that participation per capita population has significantly increased? Because that’s the real test. Up to a point, increased participation is just a matter of increased population).

That's not the real test at all. Remember we're discussing should the BMC advocate increased participation, not anything else. In that argument, climbers per capita isn't the important metric, absolute numbers is. (Alternatively, climbers per dry piece of rock or similar, but again this is driven by absolutes not per capita). This is the same as greenhouse gas emissions - absolutes are what screws the environment. If population doubles and climber numbers double, the issues are just the same as if climber numbers double without population changing. The argument that you're fighting a losing battle because participation is driven by population is not a valid argument for actively aiming to increase participation. If anything it's an argument to the contrary.

(until people start to say “not going to “X” in this weather, it’ll be heaving”).

They've been saying that for ages, as I mentioned in my above post to Chris SA. But you don't always have a choice if you want to go outside. Unless you keep certain crags secret... there's a reason why the French do that!

We live in a crowded little lump of dirt stuck in the North Atlantic. It rains, often. We have limited opportunity and space. If you think you stand any chance of preserving some idealistic realm, where only the chosen few venture into the great outdoors; you’re living in cloud cuckoo.

As I said above: "X is going to happen and there's nothing we can do about it, so irrespective of whether X is good or not we should not only accept X but actively push for X to happen". This is not good logic, nor a convincing argument in any other way. In fact it achieves the opposite of its goal and points out exactly why advocating X is probably a bad idea. In fact, I'm not sure I've ever heard a better argument for why the BMC should not actively promote participation!

I remember sitting at Stanage one day ~89ish, idly debating with my mate (as we queued, three groups deep), whether we could actually walk the entire crag length, standing on punters heads, without touching the ground.
I wasn’t allowed to test it.

Maybe you're right and participation levels haven't changed, but that doesn't seem to be consensus. Last week was very snowy, but that doesn't mean that global warming isn't something we should be wondering about.

Eventually, some form of regulation will be needed. That’s just how the world works.
In the boating world, around the French Med, the numbers and idiocy reached a point where the authorities stepped in and began demanding qualifications and insurance from boaters.

Good.

Recreational diving has become similar.

Even better.

- See above for why "X is inevitable" is not a good argument for hastening the arrival of X.
- You may advocate the need for licensing for outdoor climbing. I hope we can avoid it

This idea that climbers can somehow fly under the radar forever,

See above for why "X is inevitable" is not a good argument for hastening the arrival of X.

that the BMC should be some minor guardian of arcane rites and rituals, or that we should all become some Masonic brotherhood, where only the chosen might be admitted; sucks balls.

If wanting to go to the crag and it not be totally fucked and full of tits involves signing up to a Masonic brotherhood then sign me up.

[Paul B]

Did you deliberately ignore the next paragraph where I said.

No, just rushing at work, so apologies. However, again as per Barrows in the context of UK sport this sentiment doesn't really apply.

Simon, I'll respond later.