[jfdm]

Good read:

http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2017/06/10/britain-the-end-of-a-fantasy/

Not had the time to read it all but read the last bit regarding Brexit.
I have been thinking about minority gov, this is a bit of a long shot.
Why on such a big decision are the Cons/Lab not working together to deliver on this.
Both parties seem to want, the minutiae is obviously different, but the will seems to be there.
May could simply call Jezzers bluff.
I still think cross party arrangements like this are needed on Education, Health, Social care.
Why should it be that every 5 years having an overhaul, why don't parties work together so that this long term thinking in terms of stability a view that will hold together for 10 years or longer.

[mrjonathanr]

Their objectives are fundamentally opposed though, aren't they?

Labour want to retain the welfare state, Conservatives want to disassemble and privatise. There isn't much common ground apart from both being muddled and conflicted about our relationship to Europe.

[jfdm]

Their objectives are fundamentally opposed though, aren't they?

Labour want to retain the welfare state, Conservatives want to disassemble and privatise. There isn't much common ground apart from both being muddled and conflicted about our relationship to Europe.

Yep get all that, just like regulars on here we sometimes don't agree, but sometimes we do find common ground and agree.

So if the two main parties agree on a key issue like Brexit, they want it to happen, surely the best course of action is work together. It would be in the national interest.
How best to get out of the cul-d-sac we are now in? Again such a massive decision is best taken with a collective view as the affect will in all probability be so long lasting. Without having to resort to coalitions with nut job parties. I am against brexit personally.

I was speaking to my dad this afternoon, politics always seems to be about point scoring, tribalism etc. Rather than about the national interest.

With regard to health care, education, social care, again best way forward would be put aside the tribalism and work out some common ground.

If there is another  election the outcome could quite possibly be the same, hung parliament etc, we are then back to square one.

Politics is the art of the possible.

[mrjonathanr]

I think Labour will have no interest in rescuing the Tories from this car-crash.

Rising inflation, falling pound, slowest growth in Eurozone, chaos at the negotiating table - a negotiation brought on by Tory hubris as a wheeze to keep the swivel-eyed imperialists quiet. And an impotent PM. All of this on the Tory watch.

I think Labour will watch and wait.

[tomtom]

Sit back and let the mess unfurl.

Jdfm is right though - there is the opportunity (that won't be taken) to make Brexit negotiations cross party. But they won't...

[Will Hunt]

It's just not how politics works. The other lot are very very bad and thus you must oppose them. This is a gift for Labour. The Brexit negotiations will be a mess entirely precipitated and presided over by the Tories. After the fallout, they'll be there to heroically take over.

[jfdm]

It's just not how politics works. The other lot are very very bad and thus you must oppose them. This is a gift for Labour. The Brexit negotiations will be a mess entirely precipitated and presided over by the Tories. After the fallout, they'll be there to heroically take over.

Yep but not very grown up really when you think about it.
Why not try to influence things rather than pick up the pieces after the event.
I can see why Lab wouldn't touch this with a barge pole.
But what a mess.

[mrjonathanr]

It appears you are assuming will  happily scuttle the ship to see the captain sink.

it is also possible that they anticipate there will be a mutiny once the water starts lapping the gunwales which will be the moment to wrest power and start baling frantically.

Tom Watson says they are ready for the next election. Very few people think we'll have to wait 5 years for that.

[tomtom]

Tories will not call an election until they can either win it - or are forced to by a vote of no confidence.

Either is unlikely imho for the foreseeable future..

[tommytwotone]

...


I was talking to my other half about this theoretical scenario last night, which I think is eminently possible (and also terrifying at the same time)...I'm calling this now so I can say "I told you so" later:

• Tories win (sizeable lead / slim majority)
• "Big beasts" rumbling about Maybot's calling of election, not pushing home advantage
• Maybot resigns / gets the boot
• BoJo PM

So we'll have been round in a massive circle, to end up with a Tory govt with a similar sized majority, and an unelected PM.

Then of course, the Brexit omnishambles begins...

Going in that kind of direction then.

[Bonjoy]

Any offer of this sort by the tories would be viewed by labour as the trap that it was. Why would labour be fool enough to volunteer for the role of scapegoat when the negotiations inevitably go badly and we equally inevitably come out with a shit deal? If the tories are smart they'll make the offer knowing it'll be refused, it's a win win for them, they either get a scapegoat, or a PR win.

[jfdm]

Further details are leaking out why there has been a delay for the queens speech.
"As Watt explained on the World at One a moment ago, the Queen’s speech is not written on proper goat’s skin anymore, but on some sort of equivalent. But it is still necessary for the speech to be finalised several days in advance because it takes a while for the ink to dry on this material." - guardian
You couldn't make it up, stick it on a phone or tablet, who needs paper or synthetic goat skin.

[Offwidth]

Naughty young Labour voters caught  trespassing.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2017/jun/12/david-squires-on-theresa-mays-deal-with-the-dup

[Oldmanmatt]

[Will Hunt]

Further details are leaking out why there has been a delay for the queens speech.
"As Watt explained on the World at One a moment ago, the Queen’s speech is not written on proper goat’s skin anymore, but on some sort of equivalent. But it is still necessary for the speech to be finalised several days in advance because it takes a while for the ink to dry on this material." - guardian
You couldn't make it up, stick it on a phone or tablet, who needs paper or synthetic goat skin.

UK laws are transcribed onto vellum which lasts much much longer than ordinary paper. We still have original signed copies of the Magna Carter from 800 years ago that were written on vellum. If having a permanent, official record of these things is important (it is) then just banging it into a word document doesn't quite cut it. Thinking about it there are potential problems with file types falling out of usage, data corruption etc. Files may be replicated in different places with changes made, such that it isn't clear which version is the original document. Etc etc etc.

I'm not saying that storing stuff on vellum is perfect or even necessarily better than digital storage, just pointing out why it is done that way. The Tories might try and blame a late Queen's speech on a seemingly archane way of storing information, but the reality is that they've known for long enough when the Queen's speech is due, they know what the lead time is for having it transcribed. They're just trying to put the blame on something other than the disarray in their own party.

[Oldmanmatt]

Is this acceptable from an MP?

[mrjonathanr]

I'm not saying that storing stuff on vellum is perfect or even necessarily better than digital storage, just pointing out why it is done that way. The Tories might try and blame a late Queen's speech on a seemingly archane way of storing information, but the reality is that they've known for long enough when the Queen's speech is due, they know what the lead time is for having it transcribed.

Well 802 days this Thursday since Magna Carta, time enough for even the slowest of learners you might think.

[changement]

UK laws are transcribed onto vellum which lasts much much longer than ordinary paper. We still have original signed copies of the Magna Carter from 800 years ago that were written on vellum. If having a permanent, official record of these things is important (it is) then just banging it into a word document doesn't quite cut it.
[\quote]

Nice to see labour taking the lead on this, carving their 2015 electoral promises into stone. It'll outlast even vellum.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

[mrjonathanr]

Is this acceptable from an MP?

Not really, but it'll not bring the House down. Losing the faith of half of Ulster as an impartial mediator by entering into an interdependent agreement with the DUP, well...

[SA Chris]

Not acceptable, but very funny.

Oh and Saint Teresa will "get us out of this". I've got the popcorn at the ready.

[Oldmanmatt]

....?

https://www.georgiagrainger.co.uk/politics/shame-game-dup/


I actually quite liked Major, he seemed to have fewer axis in his eye swivel than is the Tory norm (but then, I liked Brown too). He's possibly the only Tory firing on all cylinders at the moment:

 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/election-2017-john-major-theresa-may-conservatives-dup-deal-violence-northern-ireland-a7787681.html

[Oldmanmatt]

So, I would take this as Ashcroft's opinion, relayed by the baby faced one (having spent long evenings with the toddler, my impression is that he needs to be told how to hold toilet paper).

Interesting to see the extent of hinting, or outright calling for, cross party cooperation.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/12/brexit-will-defeat-government-unless-recognises-everything-has/?WT.mc_id=tmgoff_fb_tmg

If you register, you can read one premium article per week from the Torygraph. It's quite amusing to think they probably think I'm a Tory because I signed up.

[Fultonius]

I seem to remember quite a few UKber's previous trotting out the "Corbyn totally unelectable" line previously...anything to say on that now???

[mrjonathanr]

Well proved otherwise, but keep some perspective; a brilliant campaign - clearly a huge area of strength- doesn't make concerns in other areas completely disapppear, there's some work to be done in terms of day-to-day party politics, that has not changed.

[Oldmanmatt]

I think, perhaps, few were fully aware of his abilities prior to campaign.
My opinion has softened on the Fella, though I still see him as a socks and sandals, right on, luvvy; I realised I'd never really listened to him speak and he was more commanding/authoritative  than I had given him credit for.