[petejh]

OMM - just quickly because I haven't time to post on here at the mo.

Your assertion (shared by so many on here) that 'none of the leave camp can come up with anything more concrete than "no more faceless bureaucrats!" or/and "It'll all be fine, just a little hiccup on the way!" is incorrect - they can, but at the moment they aren't going to be heard by those that refuse to listen.
And I'm not complacent that anything is a forgone conclusion or something to be flippant about - i.e. I don't think it's all a lark, TomTom.

If you actually stop to listen you'll hear the message that the leave camp is composed of two major viewpoints. Firstly, a group that's (roughly) liberalist, globalist, outward looking. Secondly, UKIP supporters i.e. immigration haters. My viewpoint is partly summed up in this short blog made last February concerning what a post brexit UK could look like. I said about 10 pages back that I'd be content with either result, but my preference is rule by a government close to and accountable to its people, rather than remote central governance.

I voted fully believing that brexit would look like lots of concessions being made to remain part of a European single market - free movement of people being one major concession. Which is what's currently looking most likely because, despite what many of Jasper's 'D.Ms.' might want and might have voted for it's just common-sense. Nothing said since the referendum by the more far right-wing 'leave' politicians (i.e. the 'back-tracking' as the narrative goes) has yet surprised me.
Picking apart figures can go on for ever on both sides - for instance 10 minutes of research by any brexit supporter would have confirmed that Farage's 350 mil claim is incorrect. It would also have shown that there would be a figure post brexit, in theory around 170 million, but clearly it couldn't all be allocated to the nhs.
Lies, yes. It's contemptible politicians using rhetoric and flaky figures to try to convince a poorly educated, distrustful, disengaged mass of people how to vote and it happened throughout this debate - on both sides. That's shameful but it's also a reflection of how our general engagement with politics has crumbled, when our politicians can't trust that their message about something so important will resonate with the general public unless the messages are fast-food sugar-coated half-truths and totally lacking in substance.

I didn't feel any need to pay any notice to most of the rubbish of the 'leave' or 'remain' camps other than to research their claims to see if there was any merit in the figures being waved around. I'm capable of forming my own opinion without the aid of politicians who were appealing to the lowest level.

Against the current wall of hysteria and righteous indignation of a huge majority of remain voters - including some of the media establishment - it's currently close to impossible for a rational, calm, positive vision of a post brexit UK to gain any traction. We are hearing in the media all about the second group - the ukip/far-right group, and very little about the first group of brexits voters. When the beeb and other media outlets are focused on the negative far-right narrative - which I'm not denying is vital to hold to account - it's no surprise really that people think the world is going to ruin.

Until heads calm down a little there's little hope for balanced, positive common-sense views to be heard above the din of moral panic.

[petejh]

The point is there are malicious idiotic people who react to major events (referendum result, terror attack, football tournaments...., police shootings etc.) in malicious idiotic ways. That's an unintended consequence of this referendum and while being predictable doesn't mean people should be too afraid to vote for what they believe because of a fear of giving malicious idiots encouragement. I voted leave despite, not because of, a far right-wing narrative as did a lot of others.

Last year 30 people were shot dead in Tunisia. There was the slaughter in Paris. Going back futher, we've had 7/7, attempted plane hijackings, and the small matter of the Iraq war. It's not exactly been a bed of roses but we haven't had British people with the wrong skin colour being abused in the streets like this before.

Yes we have. There's a long history of hate-crimes following the events you mentioned. A little research will tell you that.

[petejh]

I'm not sure what "leaving in spite of a far-right narrative" actually means, but what it seems to have led to in practice is a rise in far-right behavious. So yeah, that whole socialist better Britain leave thing, that was a bit o' the old bullshit wasn't it?

It means voting for reasons other than immigration. As a huge number of people did. You seem to find that so hard to believe?

[Bonjoy]

That blog link isn't working for me Pete

[petejh]

Hopefully this one works.

[seankenny]

The point is there are malicious idiotic people who react to major events (referendum result, terror attack, football tournaments...., police shootings etc.) in malicious idiotic ways. That's an unintended consequence of this referendum and while being predictable doesn't mean people should be too afraid to vote for what they believe because of a fear of giving malicious idiots encouragement. I voted leave despite, not because of, a far right-wing narrative as did a lot of others.

Last year 30 people were shot dead in Tunisia. There was the slaughter in Paris. Going back futher, we've had 7/7, attempted plane hijackings, and the small matter of the Iraq war. It's not exactly been a bed of roses but we haven't had British people with the wrong skin colour being abused in the streets like this before.

Yes we have. There's a long history of hate-crimes following the events you mentioned. A little research will tell you that.

Move on folks. Nothing to see here. It's business as usual.

Don't you love it when a white guy effectively tells loads of brown and black people not to worry their fuzzy wuzzy little heads about something?

[petejh]

Those aren't my sentiments nor any other right-minded persons'. However they voted on a political union with the EU.

[seankenny]

Those aren't my sentiments nor any other right-minded persons'. However they voted on a political union with the EU.

I don't know what your sentiments are except for what you write on here. I'm perfectly willing to believe you voted on political union rather than immigration, but what you've written above is basically "any reported racism after the vote, it's just like after other big events, we haven't helped empower a rabid white English nationalism - this is just business as usual".

Sorry old chap, but it's not business as usual.

[Johnny Brown]

It would also have shown that there would be a figure post brexit, in theory around 170 million, but clearly it couldn't all be allocated to the nhs.

Or none, once you account for the shrinkage of the economy, and the fact that the NFU have the tories on their pockets and will get their free money first.

It's all very well saying no one expected immediate improvement. But we did get an immediate deterioration. We've got an instant recession with no route out other than a vague hope that things will slowly improve.

Your link offers nothing I hadn't already heard before the vote - ooh we could deregulate the city. And it says nothing about the wider implications effects nationally - Scotland, NI, inequality.

[petejh]

It's not business as usual no. Racism needs tackling when it spikes as it currently is. I think those people will crawl back under their rocks before long. Attributing to me, and the group of people who voted for similar reasons not to do with immigration, sentiments we don't hold isn't very productive.

[seankenny]

It's not business as usual no. Racism needs tackling when it spikes as it currently is. I think those people will crawl back under their rocks before long. Attributing to me, and the group of people who voted for similar reasons not to do with immigration, sentiments we don't hold isn't very productive.

I'm not saying you hold those sentiments. And naturally, in the first instance the responsibility for racism lies with racists themselves and the politicians who have encouraged it. But you guys who voted for this shitshow, this is one of the problems you've helped bequeath upon our society.

A little acknowledgement would be lovely.

[Duma]

He's not saying you share their sentiments! Fucking hell Pete, acknowledge that your choice means you have some responsibility for the surge in racist abuse we've seen over the last few days. Of course I accept it's not what you wanted,  but that doesn't change the fact that its happening, and it's happening because of a result you voted for.
Edit: seans already said it above

[Obi-Wan is lost...]

Meanwhile, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt has suggested a second referendum - or a general election - be held to approve any agreement on the terms of the UK's departure from the EU.
Mr Hunt said the withdrawal process should be delayed until shortly before the next election, scheduled for 2020 - meaning a delay in leaving the EU until 2022.
He is the first cabinet minister to go public with the idea of a second referendum.

Jezza hunt saying something sensible?!

[dave]

You guys have got it all wrong, Pete and Dense were voting for good Brexit, not bad Brexit. How were they to know all the neo-nazis would vote that way too? Have a heart.

[Duma]

I can't see a second ref being likely,  but am increasingly expecting whoever wins the Tory leadership to call a GE, and run on a manifesto of the likely terms of exit. Wouldn't expect it or brexit to wait till the 2020's though.

[petejh]

It's not business as usual no. Racism needs tackling when it spikes as it currently is. I think those people will crawl back under their rocks before long. Attributing to me, and the group of people who voted for similar reasons not to do with immigration, sentiments we don't hold isn't very productive.

I'm not saying you hold those sentiments. And naturally, in the first instance the responsibility for racism lies with racists themselves and the politicians who have encouraged it. But you guys who voted for this shitshow, this is one of the problems you've helped bequeath upon our society.

A little acknowledgement would be lovely.

Acknowledgement of what? - that 'I helped bequeath upon society' a spike in racism? Do you expect me to feel ashamed or guilty for voting leave for reasons that have nothing to do with racism and everything to do with political union and economics?
Isn't the referendum result, the fact that racists exist and likely always will, and the following spike in racism self-evident enough? What would you hope to achieve by this acknowledgement from people who voted for 'leave'? - No referendums that risk unearthing unsavory parts of society?

You can't ever ask difficult questions or ever change political direction in that case.

That would be analogous to UEFA acknowledging that deciding to hold a football competition, and inviting along lots of different countries, bequeathed upon the people of Marseille hundreds of violent criminal thugs. It did of course. But the answer isn't to stop holding football competitions.

I'm baffled by what benefit you think this acknowledgement achieves other than a little crumb of 'ha, told you so' comfort.

[Will Hunt]

Pete, your views on the referendum seem to be fairly ambivalent, so you're saying that you voted for Leave based on a weak leaning towards a small change in the principles of how our country is governed. This in spite of the knowledge that a successful Leave vote would hand a mandate to the racist far-right.

My own analogy: It's like somebody voting for the BNP because they're offering voters 10% off crates of Carling.

[Will Hunt]

Sweet Jesus. Just seen on the BBC that Boris and Gove have been having breakfast with Lynton Crosby this morning.

[rodma]

That's not very fair on Pete, we all know he voted for an end to buy-to-let mortgages

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[petejh]

No Will, that isn't what I'm saying and please don't put words in my mouth. Without writing massive posts which no-one wants to read and which I haven't time to write you aren't going to get much more clarity out of a web forum post.

[seankenny]

It's not business as usual no. Racism needs tackling when it spikes as it currently is. I think those people will crawl back under their rocks before long. Attributing to me, and the group of people who voted for similar reasons not to do with immigration, sentiments we don't hold isn't very productive.

I'm not saying you hold those sentiments. And naturally, in the first instance the responsibility for racism lies with racists themselves and the politicians who have encouraged it. But you guys who voted for this shitshow, this is one of the problems you've helped bequeath upon our society.

A little acknowledgement would be lovely.

Acknowledgement of what? - that 'I helped bequeath upon society' a spike in racism? Do you expect me to feel ashamed or guilty for voting leave for reasons that have nothing to do with racism and everything to do with political union and economics?

I'm just curious to see if you feel you played any part in it. Whatever your reasons, this is the outcome you wanted and helped to produce. The outcome includes not only some political and economic benefits (well, maybe, sometime, you hope) but also lashings of racism. These outcomes were all entirely predictable and indeed predicted. Still, you went ahead with your choice anyhow, and, being an adult, surely you know that choices have consequences?

Isn't the referendum result, the fact that racists exist and likely always will, and the following spike in racism self-evident enough? What would you hope to achieve by this acknowledgement from people who voted for 'leave'? - No referendums that risk unearthing unsavory parts of society?

You can't ever ask difficult questions or ever change political direction in that case.

Well, Atlee and Thatcher are both on record as firmly rejecting referenda for essentially that reason. And they were both responsible for the two biggest political shifts between 1945 and 2015. So your statement turns out to be incorrect.

As for racists always existing, you can encourage and inflame those sentiments, or you can damp down on them as much as possible. The campaign you supported took the former route.

I'm baffled by what benefit you think this acknowledgement achieves other than a little crumb of 'ha, told you so' comfort.

Yes, must be baffling, mustn't it?

I thought this article was a good backgrounder:
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/blogs/jay-elwes/why-the-eu-vote-was-so-nasty

This quote seems kind of pertinent:

"The vision of an ideal Britain, the idea that if only we take the plunge then all of our problems—“our borders… huge sums of money… trade policy… our whole law-making system”—would be solved, was the worst kind of irrationalism. No catch-all cure for a nation’s political ills exists, and to suggest otherwise it to appeal to people’s delusional side."

[Oldmanmatt]

Actually, I can see that Pete is somewhat in a catch 22 here.

I don't agree that this was the best course to achieve greater devolution, which seems to be what he (and a good many other Leavers) wanted; because it smacks of throwing out the baby with the bath water.
I can also understand the frustration with the glacial pace and seemingly impossibility of effecting that type of change as the system stood.

This might be a good opportunity for that, however, and the right wingers (can't we just call them fascist and be done?) are doing their best to sabotage that. See Farage this am.

I cannot, at all, see that these events, this result and those campaigns; have done anything other than stoke the fires of hatred and to intimate that that was not predictable or that it was  "worth it" is naive.

That racism and the rise of the right (ok, possible rise) will be of direct consequence to me as an individual and my family. This was different from the other incident Pete has mentioned, this is being taken as a mandate for blanket xenophobia and the FACT that those bigots will not get the future they thought they were voting for; will just make it worse.
 



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[Mike Highbury]

Sweet Jesus. Just seen on the BBC that Boris and Gove have been having breakfast with Lynton Crosby this morning.

That's nice, there's someone for everyone even if they do have to share.

[Johnny Brown]

Branson:

https://embed.theguardian.com/embed/video/business/video/2016/jun/28/richard-branson-virgin-group-lost-a-third-of-value-since-brexit-vote-video

Siemens just froze investment in UK wind farms.

We were really busy until Friday, but eerily quiet since.

[petejh]

I'm just curious to see if you feel you played any part in it. Whatever your reasons, this is the outcome you wanted and helped to produce. The outcome includes not only some political and economic benefits (well, maybe, sometime, you hope) but also lashings of racism. These outcomes were all entirely predictable and indeed predicted. Still, you went ahead with your choice anyhow, and, being an adult, surely you know that choices have consequences?

Played any part in what?

The referendum result?
Yes, I played a 1-in-33551983 part in the result.
Or (I think, someone correct me) a 0.000003% part.

The outcome?
We're three days into an massive event - the consequences of which will take years and years to play out. I'm not confident in your crystal-ball skills at that range.

You can't ever ask difficult questions or ever change political direction in that case.

Well, Atlee and Thatcher are both on record as firmly rejecting referenda for essentially that reason. And they were both responsible for the two biggest political shifts between 1945 and 2015. So your statement turns out to be incorrect.

As for racists always existing, you can encourage and inflame those sentiments, or you can damp down on them as much as possible. The campaign you supported took the former route.

You're right. Change can be pushed through. And nearly all would be glad of Atlee's contribution. Less so Thatcher's of course, who pushed through change against the will of a great many people - who felt their only recourse was to strike.

In your view is Thatcher a shining example of how to enact political change then? Did Thatcher's version of political changes not have profound, some would say highly damaging, consequences to a great many people? (might want to start a whole other thread about that).