[Oldmanmatt]

Will everyone stop posting links that nobody gives a shit about reading, especially you Matt. It doesn't make you look smarter, you're just posting links. 
 The world's flooded with information to the point we're overwhelmed by informed opinions on both sides of every topic under the sun. It'll all be alright, just close your eyes, draw an X and hope for the best we'll work it out..

Weren't you the one that complained of my lack of argument in an earlier post? [emoji12]


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ducko]

Voting out but not too bothered either way

If you are not really bothered either way why not vote in, as this would maintain the status quo you obviously don't particularly have an issue with?

Poor use of words, Id personally prefer to leave for various reasons but if we end up staying I won't be devastated about it.

[tomtom]

Can someone pro Brexit give me a reason for leaving that is not based on nostalgia or racism?

[Three Nine]

Can someone pro Brexit give me a reason for leaving that is not based on nostalgia or racism?

Many people would consider me a racist, and i'm voting remain.

What I can't understand is why the pro-EU camp hasn't put more effort into promoting a European sense of identity. There seems to be no propaganda effort at all in this direction. A lot of the problems people have with being in the EU (and perhaps one day becoming part of an United States of Europe) would go away if we didn't think in terms of 'them' and 'us'.

[petejh]

Will everyone stop posting links that nobody gives a shit about reading, especially you Matt.

As someone much more worried about a lunatic taking power in the heavily-armed country to my immediate south, rather than the institutional future of my land of birth, I have been keeping out of this thread. But no reasonable person could read pete's post without feeling the urge to post a link ...

From Boris' old shop, a pro-Brexit article that makes a few good points ...
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/out-and-into-the-world-why-the-spectator-is-for-leave/

... but I would still vote Remain if I had a vote (I have been too slow to get a postal vote in time for the referendum).

Didn't read it, can you summarise?

[petejh]

Can someone pro Brexit give me a reason for leaving that is not based on nostalgia or racism?

Many people would consider me a racist, and i'm voting remain.

What I can't understand is why the pro-EU camp hasn't put more effort into promoting a European sense of identity. There seems to be no propaganda effort at all in this direction. A lot of the problems people have with being in the EU (and perhaps one day becoming part of an United States of Europe) would go away if we didn't think in terms of 'them' and 'us'.

Are you out of your mind? That would be disastrous. 'Try to sway little-britoners to feel good about being members of the EU by promoting more of a sense of EU-identity' - even a majority of remainers don't want any closer integration with Europe than our current arm's length status quo FFS!

Which is why it's such a close-run thing, even the remainers find it hard to be passionate about large bits of the EU. There must be something I can link to that says similar...

[Fultonius]

Which is why it's such a close-run thing, even the remainers find it hard to be passionate about large bits of the EU.

I definitely feel there is some truth in this. I'm for "remain", but have been made aware by my Dutch girlfriend that I still talk about "Europe" as a separate entity. I do feel that while part of the EU, and very much "European", the UK is slightly set-apart.

I have tried to read some of the more well thought out Brexit pieces and I in some ways agree with quite a few of their arguments as to the EU's failings; where I cease to agree is the follow on that leaving the EU and handing power to the right-wing loon brigade will improve anything!!

[chris j]

If you don't want to listen to 11 minutes there's a text summary here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35962999

[Duma]

In the event of a leave vote, what are the odds of a General Election Shortly thereafter? Boris and the right wing rump of the tories will have nothing like a workable majority, and a vote of no confidence must be pretty likely to go through I guess?

[chris j]

Can someone pro Brexit give me a reason for leaving that is not based on nostalgia or racism?

Undecided as yet but the most compelling seems to be that the EU economy is gradually going down the toilet compared to the rest of the world and we don't need to tie ourselves to it?

My biggest problem with the Remain campaign is the complete lack of any positive argument as to why we should stay in, it's all been Project Fear and how the world will end if we vote to leave.

[tomtom]

Can someone pro Brexit give me a reason for leaving that is not based on nostalgia or racism?

Undecided as yet but the most compelling seems to be that the EU economy is gradually going down the toilet compared to the rest of the world and we don't need to tie ourselves to it?

Compared to who? US? They have more growth bit staggering personal debt issues and massive inequality.. S.America? Chile's doing Ok but Brazil, Argentina? Australia is only rich as its sold / selling its resources.. Russia? Japan? S.Africa? All have big problems...

Has any economist said its a good idea for the UK?

Ok. So economies doing well: China, India, Oz - should we expect to be doing as they are?

The economic argument for leaving is (imho) built on nostalgia... Empire.. Make Britain Great again etc... Absolute bollocks - the worlds a very different place now.

Can anyone name a country (similar size to us) that is doing well on its own - that's in a similar position to us in terms of little/no natural resources to plunder nor massive funds in reserve? It's not rhetorical - I can't think of one..

[tomtom]

(Sounding a bit arsey above - soz)

[Fultonius]

Can someone pro Brexit give me a reason for leaving that is not based on nostalgia or racism?

Undecided as yet but the most compelling seems to be that the EU economy is gradually going down the toilet compared to the rest of the world and we don't need to tie ourselves to it?

My biggest problem with the Remain campaign is the complete lack of any positive argument as to why we should stay in, it's all been Project Fear and how the world will end if we vote to leave.

So, we've worked together to make Europe more prosperous, stable and generally "free" (free movement, free trade, freedom from persecution etc.etc.) but now the Greece and Spain are dragging us down so "fuck 'em, let em burn" we'll do better on our own?

The North of England is dragging London down...should we just cut them free too?  There are only 10m people in Greece. The EU could easily afford to just pension everyone above 50 off and it wouldn't even make a dent. FFS the entire GDP of Greece is only 1.3% of the EU GDP. We could literally just pay Greece to put their feet up for the next 100 years without even feeling it.

Re: the second point. I agree that only focusing on the negatives does put some off. The difficulty with trying to sound "positive" especially with regards to the economy is that the status quo is exactly that - so remain = no major change. So, it would be false to say - "vote remain for an amazing new super-economy". As this clearly won't happen. So the only option left is to point out the potential downsides of leaving.

So, all the major economists, BoE, FT, etc. etc. are all shouting really loudly that it is a terrible idea and it all comes across a bit "project fear" which I can see could be a turn-off, and is maybe unlikely to win you over. 

I would just urge you to think about WHY so many leading economist think it is total suicide? Not as in "don't do it because it might be risky". Risk can be rewarding, remember, I voted for Scottish independence - this clearly had risks but the arguments  for and against were very even matched....which is far, far from the case in this referendum.

[Footwork]

But the Japanese have got a completely different set of morals than British people. Living off the state is seen as shameful whereas we have a television programme called benefit street with people saying how bloody great it is...

I have not studied japan for decades let alone 10 minutes btw so may be very wrong.

A problem we have in the UK (and lots of other places) is soldiering. Doing as little as possible without getting the sack. Factory workers realising it doesn't matter how hard they work, they will always get paid the same whereas if they work more the guy at the top gets it all.

Maybe in Japan they work harder? 

[TobyD]

Undecided as yet but the most compelling seems to be that the EU economy is gradually going down the toilet compared to the rest of the world and we don't need to tie ourselves to it?
My biggest problem with the Remain campaign is the complete lack of any positive argument as to why we should stay in, it's all been Project Fear and how the world will end if we vote to leave.

The NHS will end if we leave and PM BJ then does a trade deal with the US which allows US healthcare providers in on any qualified provider and they cherry pick all the easy sectors of healthcare. EU work freedoms give the uk valuable people to work in IT, healthcare, finance... if we leave wave bye bye to a lot of British agriculture as well, and hello to farmers newly impoverished by lack of subsidies selling up to building developers.... So remaining is good for UK healthcare, finance, agriculture, industry... how much more positive does it need to be?

[Nigel]

Factory workers realising it doesn't matter how hard they work, they will always get paid the same whereas if they work more the guy at the top gets it all.

What's wrong with that might I ask? Seems reasonable. Are you Karl Marx and do I get £5?

[Will Hunt]

If this thread has taught me anything it is that whatever the available facts are, people will sort through them until they find the ones that support their own predeliction, cling to them, and shrug off any conflicting information.

[shark]

If this thread has taught me anything it is that whatever the available facts are, people will sort through them until they find the ones that support their own predeliction, cling to them, and shrug off any conflicting information.

Is that a fact?

[lagerstarfish]

If this thread has taught me anything it is that whatever the available facts are, people will sort through them until they find the ones that support their own predeliction, cling to them, and shrug off any conflicting information.

did you not go to university for that lesson?

[SA Chris]

If this thread has taught me anything it is that whatever the available facts are, people will sort through them until they find the ones that support their own predeliction, cling to them, and shrug off any conflicting information.

That's confirmation bias. Isn't it dave?

[erm]

Undecided as yet but the most compelling seems to be that the EU economy is gradually going down the toilet compared to the rest of the world and we don't need to tie ourselves to it?

In the event of Brexit the EU would likely remain our biggest trading partner, our failure to trade more the the BRIC nations is not a product of EU membership but our own choices.

So we can be in the club and try to influence it for better or get dragged by the gravity trade with the biggest developed trading block in the world, if a collapse actually occured.

My biggest problem with the Remain campaign is the complete lack of any positive argument as to why we should stay in, it's all been Project Fear and how the world will end if we vote to leave.

I would watch the video of Gordon Brown in Coventry catherdral if you want to hear some one put a positive argument for remain out there. It is based on what we have achieved with the EU and what the British should strive for in Europe (It's only a little over 2 minutes long, so I will include the link ).

[chris j]

Compared to who?

In the spirit of the thread and posting obscure links:

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/The_EU_in_the_world_-_economy_and_finance

From as I understand it the EU's own statistics agency?  Fig 3 on the right hand side, not overly clear but the EU-28 GDP appears to be the bottom line on the first two graphs and above only Japan on the 3rd. From your list of comparators, Russia, Argentina, Brazil and South Africa all, as you say, have big problems and yet are doing massively better than the EU over the 10 years to 2013...

[chris j]

So, we've worked together to make Europe more prosperous, stable and generally "free" (free movement, free trade, freedom from persecution etc.etc.) but now the Greece and Spain are dragging us down so "fuck 'em, let em burn" we'll do better on our own?

The North of England is dragging London down...should we just cut them free too? 

You're being a bit dramatic, no?

There are only 10m people in Greece. The EU could easily afford to just pension everyone above 50 off and it wouldn't even make a dent. FFS the entire GDP of Greece is only 1.3% of the EU GDP. We could literally just pay Greece to put their feet up for the next 100 years without even feeling it.

If it's that easy and the EU is such a benevolent organisation, why the fuck don't they do that then, rather than dragging Greece through economic hell with out even the promise of a light at the end of the tunnel?

I would just urge you to think about WHY so many leading economist think it is total suicide? Not as in "don't do it because it might be risky". Risk can be rewarding, remember, I voted for Scottish independence - this clearly had risks but the arguments  for and against were very even matched....which is far, far from the case in this referendum.

Personally I would have put that that the other way round. I feel more optimistic about the UK as an entity making it's way in the world outside the EU than Scotland if it had left the UK. At least there won't be an absurd debate about what currency the UK would use...

[erm]

Russia, Argentina, Brazil and South Africa all, as you say, have big problems and yet are doing massively better than the EU over the 10 years to 2013...

I think to characterise these countries as doing better than Europe, as a whole, is pretty far off base.

Russia - Kleptocracy, where the politcal leadership is invading other nations to distract the people

Argentina - Doesn't have full access to the world finance markets because it has defaulted repeatedly and refused to pay. Previous governments have raided the pension funds (private and public) to keep the wheels moving.

Brazil - Corrupt with poor infrastructure and heavily dependent on commodities which have dived in value.

SA - Still hasn't overcome apartheid's long run impact with a president that should stand trial for corruption. Unemployment over 25%.

[chris j]

Ok, substitute the narrow definition of 'experiencing greater economic growth' for 'doing better'. And the point really is, given all the problems these countries face, WTF is wrong with Europe that the economy here is growing more slowly?