[Oldmanmatt]

I know that people can get worked up about our little world, but every time I read shit like this; I die a little.
How does this sort of rubbish advance any argument?

And frankly, the person he's threatening really doesn't deserve it.



But then, why be reasonable and achieve something, when you could be a twat and defeat your own purpose?

For ref:
I don't condone leaving draws in on a semi-permanent basis, for a wide ranging, long and fairly obvious list of reasons.



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[Duma]

Obvs the knee capping is over the top, and hyperbole, but that's three nine for you,  but how does whichever twat put the mallions in not deserve a chewing out? It appears you know them, but it's not really defensible is it?

[Oldmanmatt]

Perhaps I'm just old fashioned. I can accept that.

However, it's pretty clear from the ensuing furor that this proved a counterproductive approach.
I haven't been down over the winter, except to walk the dog; but I'm sure I would have taken a less confrontational approach.
If he'd simply asked who had left them, he would have been told and perhaps (had it been me) he would have ended up offering to help remove them.
Easy, perhaps, for me to say since it's less than 15 minutes walk for me.

There is never any call for threats like that.


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[a dense loner]

Lets be quite clear that's not a threat at all, that's someone sounding off on someone else who is in the wrong.

[Wood FT]

It's over the top but his point is point is spot on

[Oldmanmatt]

Ah, I see my point is missed.

Draws or no, we're you to speak to me like that on a closed group of limited membership, where all the members are at least nodding acquaintances (which he did) and where the circumstances might be easily ascertained with a civil question (which they were); rather than take the "Keyboard warrior" approach of idiotic vitriol and invective, then you would now be struggling to eat soup.

Just saying. Insert smiley to indicate that this is just a little humorous  repartee. [emoji13][emoji3][emoji4][emoji52][emoji58][emoji848]☹️*

*which it is by the way.
The essence of my point being that such language is idiotic and unacceptable. We are supposed to be evolved to a reasonable level of intelligence. I very much doubt Neter would have said any of those things to Jamie's face.

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[a dense loner]

That's what the nets for to say things that you daren't say in private to someone. For instance your reply Matt of "you would now be struggling to eat soup" is much more of a threat than the other guys rant. Your point wasn't missed by me, I just thought you were making a mountain out of a molehill

[Oldmanmatt]

That's what the nets for to say things that you daren't say in private to someone. For instance your reply Matt of "you would now be struggling to eat soup" is much more of a threat than the other guys rant. Your point wasn't missed by me, I just thought you were making a mountain out of a molehill

Do you ever read a whole post, or do you always get confused after the first paragraph?
Or is it just plain 'ol obtuse stubbornness that you ignore the (almost equally verbose) paragraph where I deliberately explain that the preceding paragraph was in fact ironic?

Sorry, but no, I don't agree that "that's what the Net is for". Neter / three nine is just plain unpleasant. An Oxbridge education doesn't entitle you to behave the way he does (you would hope it precluded it).

Your lack of sensitivity/empathy is both legendary, highly amusing and usually quite witty. It is rarely as crass and ill conceived  as Neter's tirades.

I write verbose and esoteric ramblings that wander around on strange elliptical orbits of my intended point, and that even irritates me on occasion.

Neter would make a Staffie walking, wife beater wearing, bling draped Chav blush and despair for humanity.

And I manage to say all that without swearing or threatening (even apocryphal) violence.

Draws left in at Anstey's - bad.
Vitriolic rant - worse.

How did you become so divorced from reality to even begin to condone such a thing?

If you heard a parent speaking like that to a child you would tut and wonder how much damage it would do.

If you heard some Chav screaming similar at some poor cashier in Tescos, you would feel pity for the target and wonder if perhaps you might need to call someone to help, or even interfere yourself.

And yet, we have become so inured to this shit, we think it's normal and ok.

I was an NCO in the Navy, I've been a ships captain and Chief Engineer and essentially spent my entire working life amongst some of the roughest, plain speaking people you could hope to meet. Hardly a shrinking violet, a fuse measured in Nanometers and I still find him offensive enough to actually publicly voice that disgust.



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[lagerstarfish]

it's not his fault, Matt

it's the microcephaly talking

[Duma]

Disagree matt. Comparing a rant online to in person is complete nonsense, and I can't believe you don't realise that, in fact it seems more likely to me that you're offended more as you know one of the selfish twats it was aimed at. And to be clear, in my opinion, leaving mallions (not draws that could be easily removed) in a route for several months is way worse than going a bit overboard when ranting about it online.

[a dense loner]

Yep to Duma, and I read all the post. What you've just said about 3-9 is far worse than his empty rant with obviously no malice in it. That's what I can see

[Oldmanmatt]

No, I don't know any of them beyond a nod.

I stand by my opinion.

There is no such thing as an empty rant.

I'm sorry that you think there is, both of you.

Sorry that you think my disgust more offensive than idiotic vitriol.

That would be why I said it made me die a little.


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[Mumra]

Why are you writing in broken
paragraphs
is it for
effect?

It seems like some idiot left perma draws in a route and he got called out
why are you getting
butt hurt
about
it

This
typing is
annoying isn't it
yet doesn't
convoy
fuck
all

maybe Jamie (?) should sort his shit out

[Oldmanmatt]

[emoji1]

You really are new here ain't you.



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[Mumra]

If it smells like bullshit.............

[Oldmanmatt]

If it smells like bullshit.............

Only after you arrived. [emoji13]


Oops, hang on...

Only

        After
       
                 You

                        Arrived.


                                          .

                                                  .


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[Mumra]

I've always been
lurking

[Stu Littlefair]

I think that permadraws at anstey's are a minor infraction; it's marginally less safe and can be annoying to someone projecting who wants the draws "just so", but this is no big deal. The crag is not very visible.

But leaving them in over the winter until the maillons seize is really crappy behaviour; it's either selfish, lazy or idiotic and definitely deserves calling out on the Internet.


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[Duma]

From the posts on fb the mallions on the lynch have been there over six months. If you leave your draws for a few days in between sessions its mildly annoying (I'm guessing this is what you meant by the phrase permadraws stu), mallions for any amount of time is not ok imo, and leaving shit there for months at a time is the actions of a selfish twat. It's not just annoying and a pain to remove, it's unsafe.

[cha1n]

I saw this post flash up on the Bristol fb group and whilst I agreed with the general message he was trying to convey (and found it vaguely amusing), he could have clearly handled the situation a bit better. It's the message that the 16 year old version of me would have posted.

[Nibile]

It's the message that the 16 year old version of me would have posted.

It would have been extremely mature for him.

[lagerstarfish]

how do the zink plated Quicklinks fare after being hung off stainless bolt hangers for a while?

what sort of life do you get out of them?

[chudders1]

i have some knowledge of the FACTS and would be keen to add some to the discussion . the draws on lynch were put up to assist in the ascent of an age old project , allowing for maximum time on the climb at each visit. they were bought and paid for by the individual who posted their existence on ukc . susbsequently many people have used them and been pleased to do so . if someone feels the draws become unsafe then surely they dont use them , much like pegs on trad routes . the person in question has checked them regularly , greasing them to ensure removal would be swift. i was with the person on the last session there getting within an inch of his crux move just before a fall at a local climbing wall rendered his ankle damaged !! had this not happened the route would have been ticked and draws removed . this is not a major tourist attraction and the draws are not exactly detracting from the view so i see no reason why they caused such a fuss. can some one please explain the difference between perma draws on a sports route and tat on a trad route > thanks- any body who is interested in ACTAUL fact rather than malicious gossip/mud slinging please feel free to get in touch -- thanks for your time - much love
 

[a dense loner]

What's important about them facts? All you've said of consequence is he's broke his foot so they've been left in longer. Has he no friends to take them out? Is he a self belayer like godskins? Obviously if that's the way it's done down there then that's up to you guys but seems a bit selfish to me

[shark]

Maybe I am being dim, but what's the big crime in leaving maillon'ed draws on a sport route?

Safety issues related to damage to the tape and the crab is one thing and the other thing is that those that leave them don't respect that a good proportion of other people find them unsightly or incongruous.

I could put it in stronger terms.

[a dense loner]

Wankers that toss off dogs?

[andyd]

Good. Hope that is it for this one. People do things unintentionally and annoy others. People say horrible things. People say more horrible things on social media and forums than they would say out loud. It's hard to defuse it here. I'd imagine/hope that the accused will modify their behavior. This thread should focus on shared pain and encouragement.

Wankers that toss off dogs?

And shit like this that nearly made me piss my pants

[jwi]

Sometimes I'm ok with perma-draws, sometimes not. In corrosive environments, like most limestone crags the quick link often rust shut in very short time because of galvanic corrosion. (9 times out of 10, the quick link is made of worse steel quality than the hanger). Then it is sometimes impossible to take them down without rebolting the route

On highly frequented crags fixed draws are just a mess.

[mrjonathanr]

I think the age-old adage 'take only photographs, leave only quickdraws' sums it up best.

[Oldmanmatt]

I think the age-old adage 'take any photographs, leave only quickdraws' sums it up best.

I thought it ran "Film every move (uncut) and driving to/from the crag, leave only Quickdraws/bog roll/turds/wrappers/tick marks/butts/roaches/tinnies/old mattresses"

That may be the Spanish version though...


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[shark]

Maybe I am being dim, but what's the big crime in leaving maillon'ed draws on a sport route?

Safety issues related to damage to the tape and the crab is one thing and the other thing is that those that leave them don't respect that a good proportion of other people find them unsightly or incongruous.

I could put it in stronger terms.

Strange, I am sure you clipped a few happily enough (*) on your visit here ... I don't recall any self-righteous Brit ranting?

When in Canadia do as the Canadians do. At Ansteys I like it being free of situ / perma draws. I am quite aware that aesthetics and ethics are not absolute and vary from country to country. If the national consensus is OK with situ draws, chipping, whatever, then as a visitor you have to respect that. 

[Three Nine]

Just seen this.

Its very strange the different reactions my post produced on two different groups on FB and here.

On the Javu group people thought that my point was correct and that my mode of expression was mildly amusing.

Here people seem to think that my point was correct and that i'm a bit of a tit.

On the SW Beta and Conditions group people grudgingly admitted that my point was correct but that i'm subhuman scum, and that my post was far far worse than the offence I was posting a bit.

I didnt think it was that bad, I didn't actually threaten anyone - I said they 'need a kneecapping'. My Father often says I need a good thrashing, but he never actually hits me ffs! I wasn't in an angry rage when I wrote it, its just standard over the top language expressing my irritation at whichever tit was responsible. If i'd left in-situs in Fisherman's for a few months and someone posted on the interweb saying 'take your draws out u lazy cunt or i'll break your legs and cut your teeth out', I wouldn't bat an eyelid.

The chap leaving them in the CS is just being bone idle.

The chap leaving them in the Lynch may not be, but having a health condition of any kind doesn't mean its ok to do things that its not ok for others to do at the crag, or should we have wheelchair access at Gogarth? I'm being OTT again, silly me, im probably offending somebody or other. Any blasted way, you can equip pretty much all of the Lynch with a clip stick.

It has been pointed out that, once upon a time, I wrote on the internet saying I was fine with the draws staying in Mecca. There a few reasons why my view of the draws in CS is different.

1. i'm older and shit, and I changed my mind; its what its there for.

2. i was told how sketch the draws were when they tested them after removing them

3. I have always loved Anstey's, and i dont really give a rats ass about the Tor.

Anyway, the merits of the CS argument stand, irrespective of my u-turns/hypocrisy/lack of credibility etc.

Honestly writing this is so lame. I don't really mind if people don't like me, but I don't actually want to upset people (as in make them sad - I couldn't give a fuck if someone is full of sanctimonious rage at what a cunt I am). I don't feel any malice towards anyone, im just fucked if im going to have to run everything I say or write off the cuff to a panel of censors before I say or write it. 

So peace and love and flowers and all that cant say gay shit, and draws out of 4 bolt routes at the cove please. Ta!

[Three Nine]

I should also probably point out OMM, that there were 35 people on the Javu group who 'liked' a carbon copy of the post on SW Beta. So even tho I might often be the dumb cunt who posts something in that vein on a climbing forum, there's plenty of folk who don't think its some outrageous transgression on a par with me actually hunting down this Jamie chap and kicking him in nuts.

*No that's not a threat, yes i'm sure he's very fearsome and brave and I would never dare kick him in the nuts.*

[Mumra]

Not sure why you felt like you needed to justify anything. You must be getting old

[Three Nine]

cos im more insecure these days i've just moved to Bristol and nobody talks to me down the wall

 

[Mumra]

cos im more insecure these days i've just moved to Bristol and nobody talks to me down the wall

 

That probably says more about the Bristolian's than you.
It's admirable to have an opinion, even/especially if you're passionate about it. Otherwise we the world would be a very agreeable dull place

[Doylo]

cos im more insecure these days i've just moved to Bristol and nobody talks to me down the wall

 

They're probably intimidated by your power.

[tomtom]

I'm confused - where is the video of the in situ draws? Otherwise its just 'he said, that she said, that he said that his friends aunty had heard, that a tall man in a grey coat had been seen talking to the person who saw it in their tea leaves' eh!

[cha1n]

I didn't think it was bad enough to worry about justifying yourself to everyone, ultimately the guy was in the wrong which was the underlying message. Just not very polite.

After reading the SW post (sort of scan read it), I thought his excuse was fairly poor. Didn't he say he hurt his ankle but was posting on fb from Font or something like that.

[Oldmanmatt]

You know what, I regret starting this.
Never really meant it to be like this and was mainly mildly saddened by your choice of language 39. I also hadn't connected Neter with you at that point and then got caught up with that whole CAC thread. Which I struggled with for obvious reasons. I took a while to realise that Dense had (once again) a point.
Is that close enough to sorry?

Nah.

Sorry.


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[galpinos]

Well, you've upset me Matt. You've made me agree with 3-9, I feel dirty.

[Three Nine]

I'm slightly confused now, but i'm sure i deserved it - and i'm glad we're all chums again!

[petejh]

...
I am aware there are some Brit crags where leaving draws in place overnight upsets locals and is therefore an access issue (and at Horai in Japan you are not supposed to do it because the noise of jangling quick draws disturbs the tree spirits ...), but that's not the case at Ansteys, is it?

No, but it drives the Mermaids apeshit..

[TobyD]

Maybe I am being dim, but what's the big crime in leaving maillon'ed draws on a sport route?

Safety issues related to damage to the tape and the crab is one thing and the other thing is that those that leave them don't respect that a good proportion of other people find them unsightly or incongruous.
I could put it in stronger terms.

Not to mention that the Ferocity Wall is 50 yards from the sea. It sometimes gets sea spray with a swell and and onshore wind. Hence increased corosion of insitu stuff.

I pretty much totally agree with 3-9 / Mark / Neter on this. I suspect he may have said something pretty similar to this guy's face actually. I find insitu draws convenient, and often use them, but (perhaps hypocritically) wish that in general they weren't there; especially when they are dodgy looking.

[abarro81]

I love insitu draws, but leaving them on a seacliff over the winter is stupid

[Paul B]

I love insitu draws, but leaving them on a seacliff over the winter is stupid

You love them as long as they're maintained (on your behalf). After a few times of them not opening on an onsight or being really really worn (see RRG popular failure points for a reference here) you become less fond.

Incidentally I advocated using these on some of the Kilnsey roof routes rather than somebody's second set. It was received with some mixed opinions, mainly concern about spreading etc. However, installing one on or two would make accessing these routes a whole lot easier (IMO).

[Three Nine]

I dunno if you've been to Anstey's Bennett, but in Kilnsey terms with Cider Soak we're talking about Nerve Ending, not Mandella!

[Paul B]

I dunno if you've been to Anstey's Bennett, but in Kilnsey terms with Cider Soak we're talking about Nerve Ending, not Mandella!

I have and I am. I found draws left in various Peak routes (Monsterosity for instance) were an absolute PITA.

[petejh]

Like most things in-situ draws/equipment can be done well or badly. If you're going to do it do it well: stainless steel fixings that won't galvanic corrode within a year, and a steel clipping biner at heavy wear points like cruxes/changes of angle that won't turn into a sharp-edged health hazard within a few years.
 
And what Barrows said - I appreciate a well-thought-out bit of in-stiu gear on steep routes/to aid lowering off etc., but sub-standard in-situ gear on sea cliffs should be called out every time because it represents a short-sighted blinkered attitude on the part of the climber responsible. North Wales lime, another area where sport-climbing takes place in a salt-water environment, was littered with this sort of crap, like a rusty shit-stain left behind by 20 years of short-sighted thinking, that year-on-year eventually turned some routes into unclimbable messes.

[TheTwig]

I'll just take a second to let everyone know that this thread has been highly entertaining, bravo UKB. Sidenote: I don't think original post moaning about the mailons was OTT at all. Keep it up    

[Three Nine]

Dear all,

the message about in-situ draws at Anstey's hasn't really got through to a few of the current crop of Cove regulars, as witnessed by the latest thread on the South West sport climbing fb page (see the comments under the picture of a pair of undies!). Ian is doing his best to suggest that there shouldnt be in-situs there, but I cant post without moderator approval and nobody is going to listen to me anyway (a sensible policy in itself). I wonder if people on here with a long-standing interest in the Cove (Stu, Toby, Simon etc) might take a moment to join the group and try and explain why its not a good idea (again..)?

ta!

[Mumra]

Just steal their draws

[Wood FT]

Just steal their draws

They've probably used mallions, by the sea....

[Mumra]

Spanner em

[Coops_13]

Spanner em

The climbers or the draws?


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[Stu Littlefair]

Can't you get all the bolts on the ferocity wall clipped with one of those big beta sticks? Why not just get one and put it in the break with a little sign on it saying "use this instead". Then you can take the draws out and make an art installation by joining the third bolt on cider soak to one on the lynch and gluing the maillons shut.


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[TobyD]

Dear all,
the message about in-situ draws at Anstey's hasn't really got through to a few of the current crop of Cove regulars, as witnessed by the latest thread on the South West sport climbing fb page (see the comments under the picture of a pair of undies!). Ian is doing his best to suggest that there shouldnt be in-situs there, but I cant post without moderator approval and nobody is going to listen to me anyway (a sensible policy in itself). I wonder if people on here with a long-standing interest in the Cove (Stu, Toby, Simon etc) might take a moment to join the group and try and explain why its not a good idea (again..)?

Isn't it funny how a number of people have to save precious minutes by having loads of fixed kit in a really corrosive environment; and yet they all have hours to spend on Facebook arguing about it?

[SA Chris]

Then you can take the draws out and make an art installation by joining the third bolt on cider soak to one on the lynch and gluing the maillons shut.

If you clip slings to all the bolts and link them together, it make the face of an Indian.

Possibly.