[Mumra]

This seems to be the most ridiculous thread ever

[tomtom]

This seems to be the most ridiculous thread ever

Absolutely. I think we should have separate grades for ascensions wearing chaps.

[andyd]

This seems to be the most ridiculous thread ever

Yeah...you're on the wrong forum. Engage in the nonsense or don't.
Ps. You're half right.

[peewee]

Surely Demon Wall Roof is a joke at 7A+, it's easier than Morrell's Wall, 5+/6A ??

[webbo]

Surely Demon Wall Roof is a joke at 7A+, it's easier than Morrell's Wall, 5+/6A ??

Burn the witch.

[Bonjoy]

I agree with Ripple Effect at 7B. Didn't think it was much harder than the lh start. Brimham generally seems to have softer grades all round compared to somewhere like Caley.

[Will Hunt]

Horses for courses is fine, but it's clear that there are quite a few problems out there with a grade that's clearly wrong.
As for problems where there are certain obscure rules - if it isn't clear in the guidebook then how is your typical climber who doesn't spend hours trawling online videos or resources supposed to know what these are? It's pretty frustrating to climb something in a logical way and then get home, only to find you haven't ticked it because you didn't tie one hand behind your back.
If there's a problem its surely that there are more climbers now, who can't necessarily all bump into an old hand at the crag who can explain the particular rules for each problem.

Don't even get me started on the very idea of describing eliminates as primary problems. Should be avoided unless there's a very good reason. Describe the primary problem as the easiest way to climb the line and if there's a good, logical eliminate (as there may be with Count Duckula) then describe it as a note in the text. There's enough rock in Yorkshire that is hard enough to climb using the easiest sequence to not need to artificially inflate the grades with unfathomable eliminates.

[webbo]

What you are not appreciating Will is that alot of the old hands were just climbing things for their and their mates benefit, not to get it in some future guidebook. Things would be climbed using the obvious holds, then other people come along and find a new foothold/handhold under the lichen and so on.
 If you find something easy you could tell yourself its because you are now a Yorkshire Gristone master

[36chambers]

If you find something easy you could tell yourself its because you are now a Yorkshire Gristone master

Don't encourage him

[Fiend]

As for problems where there are certain obscure rules - if it isn't clear in the guidebook then how is your typical climber who doesn't spend hours trawling online videos or resources supposed to know what these are? It's pretty frustrating to climb something in a logical way and then get home, only to find you haven't ticked it because you didn't tie one hand behind your back.

Then you DO tick it, and cross out the original grade and write "shite eliminate" next to it 

[Offwidth]

The Sheriff 7B+ - 7A?
There is an eliminate version at 7B+which doesn't use the right arête for hands or feet, however the none eliminate version is still getting described as 7B+ which is miles of the mark. It's a shame as its such a fantastic problem but it doesn't get the attention from those who would get the most out of it since it's so wildly misgraded.

I left the grades of the stuff from 6A+ upwards to the local boulderers involved who knew the place well and local standards. When some of the Nottingham crew helping Moff and I for the YMC guide checked it, using the arete didn't feel 7A (for a variety of reaches) but we may have missed some key beta. Irrespective, since when did 7B+ to 7A (separated by a fraction of a UK tech grade in a morpho subjective area like bouldering grades) become  "wildly misgraded", especially since its an odd 'marmite' lie-down start problem at a hardly popular venue for 7's in Yorkshire.

[r-man]

Irrespective, since when did 7B+ to 7A (separated by a fraction of a UK tech grade in a morpho subjective area like bouldering grades) become  "wildly misgraded"

That's one way of looking at it. Another is that boulderers often improve quickly from UK tech 5a to 6a (ostensibly ~ 7 font grades) whereas font 7A to 7B+ (four grades) feels like a much bigger jump, even if it doesn't look like that in the grade tables.

[a dense loner]

Who the fuck thinks the sheriff is 7A? A moron with a tiny cock and a smaller IQ yet a big ego is the only explanation.

[Will Hunt]

Who the fuck thinks the sheriff is 7A? A moron with a tiny cock and a smaller IQ yet a big ego is the only explanation.

Better a big head with a tiny cock than a tiny head and a big schlong, Lee.
No, wait...


Re: The Sheriff. 7A is a world away from 7B+. The Sheriff is nowhere near as difficult as Underhand or that heel variation on Hot Dog Fromage. It feels to me a slice easier than DWR which is a similar problem. About the same difficulty as Galaxy or Dolphin Belly Slap (maybe a touch easier than DBS) though not as obvious a sequence as Galaxy. It's not just me saying that, I've spoken to others who did it much quicker than they would normally expect to do a 7B+. In fact I've only mentioned problems that are widely accepted as being notably easier than their in print grades would suggest.

I'm not accusing any guidebook writer  or FA of willfully getting grades wrong (or what I would say are wrong). It's hard to get right and there are all sorts of reasons why it can happen. All I'm suggesting is if there exists a consensus on a grade change then we can action it in a way that might make the next print edition of a guidebook. It seems there is little appetite for that.

Anonymous votes in a database are a useful indicator but a discussion on a forum could be just as useful and provide more detailed discussion.

[moose]

Sheriff at Woodhouse Scar? I could never get near it - and that was in the dim and distant past when I did a lot of the Almscliff / Caley 7b+/c classics (I recall trying it when I did angel crossing - lost a lot of mojo but found a stash of pr0n mags... The Lord moves in mysterious ways). I suspect like a lot of low roof / undercut overhang problems much of the grade discrepancies are morpho.

[Offwidth]

Irrespective, since when did 7B+ to 7A (separated by a fraction of a UK tech grade in a morpho subjective area like bouldering grades) become  "wildly misgraded"

That's one way of looking at it. Another is that boulderers often improve quickly from UK tech 5a to 6a (ostensibly ~ 7 font grades) whereas font 7A to 7B+ (four grades) feels like a much bigger jump, even if it doesn't look like that in the grade tables.

No one uses 7 grades between 5A and 6A. In the UK there is 5+ and even in the made up random nonsense in Font there are only  two intermediate grades. Grades are subjective and they can be very morpho so talking about wild differences in such circumstances is unhelpful hyperbole.

Votes can be useful but suffer from inexperinced influences and all sorts of bias. I always thought a balance of experienced opinions are better (as otherwise the sensible comparisons Will did make of his experiences would look like plain bs given the votes on UKC). Part of that balance is dropping ego and watching if others using the right beta find it as easy as you think,

[r-man]

I think you may have misread. I said Uk tech 5a to 6a = 7 font grades. For me that stretches from a soft uk 5a which might be Font 4+ to a top end uk 6a, which might be Font 6B+. That's a range of 7 font grades.

[Will Hunt]

Genuinely interesting comments about the Sheriff here.

[SA Chris]

I don't just mean the odd soft thing or sandbag, moreover the things that are commonly regarded as being 2 grades or more off.

A few people may have either not read this, or not understood it.

[SA Chris]

Surely Demon Wall Roof is a joke at 7A+, it's easier than Morrell's Wall, 5+/6A ??

I could never get near DWR even after about 2 years of frequent effort.

[tomtom]

Can we logpile this thread please?

[Offwidth]

I think you may have misread. I said Uk tech 5a to 6a = 7 font grades. For me that stretches from a soft uk 5a which might be Font 4+ to a top end uk 6a, which might be Font 6B+. That's a range of 7 font grades.

You are right about my misunderstanding.... the curse of similar grade labels. My apologies. I do think your range is wrong: a single easy 5a move would be no harder than a YMC bouldering graded F4+  but a sustained sequence of hard 6a moves would be a good bit harder than F6b+. In font the range could be from a typical 4A to a 7A. I struggle on most 5s at font yet I've done a few F6b+ problems (at Font) that were long sustained 5b and 5c roof moves (up problems.. as the traverses would be cheating). There are plenty of folk with personal bests in the low to mid 7s who can't do some sandbag 5s in the Forest, or high 6s that dont suit their morphology or skill set.

This is the crux of the matter. If Will's experience matches a uniform consensus of local boulderers,  using the easiest beta, across a group of similar problems then the relative grades do need adjusting. This might mean the harder problems are undergraded of course. From those who helped us, thats not likely... most likely the discrepancy occurs because problems like The Sherriff are hard to fix a clear consensus as its unusual and morpho. It might be a bit overgraded if we got a wider sample but It's certainly not wildly so (and such statements are inevitably criticising those who helped check for the guidebooks).

[Will Hunt]

(and such statements are inevitably criticising those who helped check for the guidebooks).

Sorry OW, not what I intended. I know how hard everyone worked on the guide!

[andyd]

(and such statements are inevitably criticising those who helped check for the guidebooks).

Sorry OW, not what I intended. I know how hard everyone worked on the guide!

I don't think it should be taken a criticism. If you get something wrong and it's pointed out to you in a fair and levelled way then you need take it as nothing more than a correction of an honest mistake.

Can we logpile this thread please?

Yes please.

[Stewart]

Karjala 7A+ - 6B+ or 6C

crikey... that's one hell of a mis-grade.... [looks outside, gets car-keys, blow-torch, and umbrella]

Presumably graded to reflect stomping about the ankle breaking foliage for an hour in an unsuccessful attempt to find it as I did on my one visit to Crookrise. Still it was worth it for Barry Kingsize..