[DAVETHOMAS90]

I was at Raven Tor yesterday, with a friend, Steve.

Armed with the new Limestone North guide, we were trying to work out where some of the longer routes like Prow go these days.

If I remember correctly, I'm sure I watched a short film some time ago, where a hero in yellow trackies set off up a similar piece of rock, describing in his best clipped Yorkshire, how the start of the route was unusual, in that it involved wiggling a tree a bit, before "Ste.pping on.to tha roc.kk. Ron his name was, I think.

If this is true, and as I recall, did happen, he was attempting to climb an old established aid line called "The Prow" free. Later, he added another route called Body Machine, which used the same start.

I remember starting these routes years ago, emulating my hero, by wiggling the tree and stepping on.to tha roc.kk, from where I climbed directly to the next break - as I'm sure he did - and beginning the traverse rightwards. This was all part of the folklore of the day.

Myth and legend often bear little resemblance to reality, and these days, Ron's greatness is celebrated in different ways.

The new Limestone North guide describes a different start to these routes, heading off slightly rightwards from where an old tree stump suggests something of the old legend. The old ways are being forgotten.

I've recently tried to find a copy of the old film I remember. Was it called Extreme Rock (Pushing the Limits)? I've found something that again suggests something of the old legend, but when I press play, I'm told "this video doesn't exist".

I'm worried by this, and am struck by a forlornness that weighs heavy.

 Can someone please help?

[Three Nine]

You sad bastard

[DAVETHOMAS90]

You sad bastard

Sad "old" bastard.

Thanks for saving me from that one 

xx

[kelvin]

"Ron Fawcett’s free ascent of The Prow (E6 6b) at Raven Tor in 1981 was a first big milestone. In those days, there was no Internet or youTube to bring developments as they happen to your desk at work, and we relied on the magazines of the time such as High to keep up with new developments. Ron’s ascent of The Prow, though, was the subject of one of the first rockclimbing TV documentaries, and those of us who were climbing then remember the film of his ascent with him wearing his distinctive red and yellow Hanwag boots."

Taken from http://www.up-climbing.com/en/contributions/rock/master-s-edge

... and according to Rockfax -The Prow FA. Ron Fawcett, Gill Fawcett 1982 (over 3 days). Followed the line of some of the aid route 'The Prow Route' (Bob Dearman, J.Gerrard 1963 ) although not the start or middle section. Repeated in a single day by Jerry Moffatt. Claimed as the 'hardest route in the world' in High magazine.

'Old' is only old from the viewpoint of youth. 

[mrjonathanr]

The eagle-eyed will have noted that Northern Limestone's pic of Ron showboating on 'Body Machine' is in fact the FA of The Prow as referenced by the OP.

[kelvin]

Thinking about this Dave - the worst thing about the new guide is it's total lacy of First Ascentionist imformation - Muenchener mentioned this when we were in Outside due to heavy rain.
History is being lost or as you say rewritten, from the original start as you say, to even the name being lost. which is quite sad. People newer to climbing like me have no recollections like yourself.

[bendavison]

And I thought this was going to be about Hubble or Liquid Ambar


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[danm]

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/peak-limestone-nort--web-support

[abarro81]

Its not a thread about Hubble or liquid but I don't really know what it is a thread about.

[shark]

At college I learnt to disrespect history and take a critical approach to the varied views of the past depending on the observers perspective and also distinguish history from archiving arcane information. The archiving of noteworthy and less noteworthy climbing facts is as far as I can see in rude health. Divergent lines and sequences to classic and less classic routes are rarely forgotten and now available to past participants to correct the record online. The guidebook is a handbook for those who turn up at the crag looking to climb a route by the most popular and sensible method rather than climb imaginary trees. 

[tomtom]

que? Have you been writing policy for the EU recently Shark?

[shark]

G&(slimline)T x 3

[tomtom]

:D I recommend #4

[kelvin]

Skip the slimline

[shark]

Neat gin?

Intravenously injected?

[TobyD]

You sad bastard

speaks the man whose main interests include wizards and orcs...

[andy popp]

G&(slimline)T x 3

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear - I'm not sure even The Oak is worth slimline tonic 

More seriously, I don't understand why you say learning to "take a critical approach to the varied views of the past depending on the observers perspective and also distinguish history from archiving arcane information" taught you to "disrespect" history? That actually sounds like a very proper respect for and understanding of exactly what history is.

[tomtom]

You sad bastard

speaks the man whose main interests include wizards and orcs...

From a forum where many members spend nice sunny days sat under dank overhangs fettling bits of rock with a toothbrush

[SamT]

 

[slackline]

History is being lost or as you say rewritten, from the original start as you say, to even the name being lost. which is quite sad. People newer to climbing like me have no recollections like yourself.

No its not, its just not worth lugging history to the crag its in a coffee table book instead...



The previous BMC Limestone had two volumes and split history into a separate book from the routes...



There is also Phil Kelly's excellent efforts with The Rock Archivist.

The history/information is in no way becoming lost.

[slackline]

The history/information is in no way becoming lost.

nai has also pointed out to me that there are the following available to download as supplements to the North Limestone guide...

First Ascent list (would have added 79 pages to an already big book)

Detailed guides to poor-quality and unvisited crags, crags that have become dangerous or overgrown or there are insurmountable access difficulties

this provides a significant saving on the bulk of the book [and cost!] while still keeping the historical record of Peak climbing development.

[shark]

G&(slimline)T x 3

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear - I'm not sure even The Oak is worth slimline tonic 

More seriously, I don't understand why you say learning to "take a critical approach to the varied views of the past depending on the observers perspective and also distinguish history from archiving arcane information" taught you to "disrespect" history? That actually sounds like a very proper respect for and understanding of exactly what history is.

I was responding to what seemed to me to be the misty-eyed veneration of all things "historical" in the OP to be shoved down every guidebook purchasers throats justified unquestioningly because it is history. The original line or sequence isn't necessarily the best and there needn't be a duty to describe the original way if the info is recorded elsewhere.

[Rocksteady]

The original line or sequence isn't necessarily the best and there needn't be a duty to describe the original way if the info is recorded elsewhere.

Except the Green Traverse? 

Sorry Shark, couldn't resist.

[shark]

The original line or sequence isn't necessarily the best and there needn't be a duty to describe the original way if the info is recorded elsewhere.

Except the Green Traverse? 

Sorry Shark, couldn't resist.

Not even the Green Traverse. The thing is to try and nip these things in the bud. I hope dropping down to the crimps remains the accepted and best way to do it and so justifies being described this way in guides but if a tipping point is reached where the majority choose to bypass the drop down move and other shenanigans then the guidebook should describe it like that even though that reinforces the change.

[petejh]

When describing routes or probs that have multiple ways of being climbed guides can mention differing grades - as per Pilrimage (post Barrows) and Silk Cut in parisellas or Battle of the Little Big Orme on LPT. That way you're reporting the facts, givng a respectful nod to history, and not mandating.