[webbo]

Matt that's the most bullshit set of posts I've seen for a long time. I reckon hardly anyone I know could do 3 BW presses, the list of people that couldn't do one would take up too much time to go into. In fact most people couldn't do 15 press ups

Above is my evidence Matt, if Dense says its bullshit then it is.

[Oldmanmatt]

Matt that's the most bullshit set of posts I've seen for a long time. I reckon hardly anyone I know could do 3 BW presses, the list of people that couldn't do one would take up too much time to go into. In fact most people couldn't do 15 press ups

Ok then... Official guidelines for testing pres-up fitness. Sorry, can't be bothered to scan and insert and don't have an electronic copy handy.

If you can crank out 30 press-ups in one go, a 1xBW bench press should present no problems.
It's not bullshit. If you can't do it, but you can do the 30 press-up reps, then you have an issue with your shoulders (because the principle difference is in stabilising the weight during the lift).

The fact that there are people who cannot do 15 press-ups, is irrelevant.
Especially those under 30yrs.

So, I re-iterate, IF YOU CAN CRANK OUT THE PRESS-UPS IT SHOULD BE QUITE EASY.

Surely it's too obvious to state that if you can't do a press-up (or, at least very many), then you won't do the bench press.

The numbers are accurate, try it with your bathroom scales.

As a fitness level bench mark, it is entirely achievable.

Or are we looking for the lowest common denominator here?


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[tomtom]

I think finding the lowest common denominator would be completely fitting with UKB. In fact I would expect nothing more. Literally.

[rodma]

i can do about 4 proper pullups and maybe push it out to 5 if i haven't trained the previous days. i can cureently do no full one-armers.

I'm similar for bodyweight benchpress, 4 or 5 at a push.
you can use upper arm rotation (and therefore also an element of forearm involvement) to assist in bench press, which must be what i do, cause i'm completely flat chested.

far too many factors in the way people climb/body morphology to attempt to benchmark anything other than peoples abilities at the benchmarking exercises.

I've never seen two climbers even of similar build, move/pull in exactly the same manner. you'd need an incredibly complex series of tests to try and take a stab at peoples relative climbing abilities, based solely upon these types of exercises.

[Oldmanmatt]

Well, of course, but wasn't this thread for specific and non-specific?
I thought we were discussing  reasonable, achievable, benchmarks.
Not what we can do now, but what we think is a reasonable level that we should be able to do.
I'm not the frickin Hulk.

Rodma, if you can do 5ish reps at BW now, it would take around 6 weeks to reach the 15 reps described given  a 10% week on week increase.

Dense is just plain difficult and will argue, period. [emoji12]




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[webbo]

I'm still not sure why a number of press ups as a fitness guide has any indication of whether yoy can bench press your body weight. For a start a press will use a lot more muscle groups. The whole idea of bench pressing is to isolate the muscles in the chest area.

anyhow I can piss the number of press ups for my age group. with abit of effort I could take years of my biological age.

[benno]

I think this might be a bit  now it's turned into quite a specific dissection of Matt's bench pressing ability, but surely a press-up is easier at the "same" load than a bench press? After all, you're not doing any of the stabilising that you need to do with a barbell unless your hands are on rollerskates.

[Rocksteady]

I think this might be a bit  now it's turned into quite a specific dissection of Matt's bench pressing ability, but surely a press-up is easier at the "same" load than a bench press? After all, you're not doing any of the stabilising that you need to do with a barbell unless your hands are on rollerskates.

Fully agree with this. Watch anyone who hasn't done bench press for a while and the bar wobbles all over the place, even if they're competent at press ups.

I guess from my experience doing 15 reps at bodyweight was harder than lifting 1.5x bodyweight for 1RM. Not that this is exceptional, just a reasonable standard. On the other hand, I used to train by upping the weight, not increasing the reps.

[Pako]

i can do about 4 proper pullups and maybe push it out to 5 if i haven't trained the previous days. i can cureently do no full one-armers.

Are you implying that you can do part of a one armer?

[Schnell]

I guess from my experience doing 15 reps at bodyweight was harder than lifting 1.5x bodyweight for 1RM. Not that this is exceptional, just a reasonable standard. On the other hand, I used to train by upping the weight, not increasing the reps.

Yep, I would have thought most climbers (to the extent that anyone is really interested in increasing their benching strength) would train lower reps and heavier weight to avoid bulking up. 15 is a strange number to pick.

[the_dom]

I have done a double-BW deadlift in the last 6 months and can do 15 strict pushups (which are harder than they should be), but I genuinely don't think I could do a single BW bench press. I can barely do sets of 5 at 80% of 1RM. I've also never felt like my climbing has been held back by my lack of bench press strength.

To be fair, I also can't do a one arm pullup*.

*That said, I can almost do one one on my right arm on a 2cm rung, and I haven't tried on a bar, so that statement may not be entirely accurate.

[Oldmanmatt]

I think this might be a bit  now it's turned into quite a specific dissection of Matt's bench pressing ability, but surely a press-up is easier at the "same" load than a bench press? After all, you're not doing any of the stabilising that you need to do with a barbell unless your hands are on rollerskates.

Fully agree with this. Watch anyone who hasn't done bench press for a while and the bar wobbles all over the place, even if they're competent at press ups.

I guess from my experience doing 15 reps at bodyweight was harder than lifting 1.5x bodyweight for 1RM. Not that this is exceptional, just a reasonable standard. On the other hand, I used to train by upping the weight, not increasing the reps.

This is very true. I'm not suggesting that "anyone can do 15 x BW bench press" off the bat.
And I'm sorry if it appeared that way. (And I was merely agreeing with a earlier post).
I mean, it is a realistic and achievable goal. The more so for those competent at press ups.

We commonly use the rings to achieve that "roller skate" effect.  Put your feet on the bench and hands on rings, and the opposite.

But most crucially, these exercises are not done in isolation.  Dips (on bars and on the rings), varying arm/hand position for different styles of press-up and on and on etc etc...

Again, are we talking about a reasonable, achievable, standard; ie one which most people could reach without unreasonable effort, or are we asking "what can most people do"?
Because if it's the later, then Dense is right, if the former the Spam is perfectly justified in supporting Rocksteady's position, which corresponds to my stance.

If you can't do 15xBW BP now, could you do it with a few weeks effort?
If you wanted or cared.

This has no bearing on climbing ability. I don't think anyone claimed it did. I suspect it would not harm that ability, though...


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[rodma]

i can do about 4 proper pullups and maybe push it out to 5 if i haven't trained the previous days. i can cureently do no full one-armers.

Are you implying that you can do part of a one armer?

Yes, I can do what a lot of people would describe as a one-armer, but that does not constitute a one-armer in mine, or anyone that isn't a fantasist's mind. if you have to bob your chin, you're just doing a strong lock off :D

Well, of course, but wasn't this thread for specific and non-specific?

Rodma, if you can do 5ish reps at BW now, it would take around 6 weeks to reach the 15 reps described given  a 10% week on week increase.

i see what you're saying but it's a nope on the increase from 5 to 15. it's not like my body isn't used to training or anything and i do pullups etc. as part of regular training routine, but then my pullups, i expect, are slightly different to what others count as pullups; they totally destroy me.   

[Oldmanmatt]

Actually, going back to SM's tables, the average category was in the range of 10-15 reps at body weight and I'm pretty sure he wasn't thinking of "Joe Dirt off the street".
I find his average point for pull ups to be the questionably large value.
For instance, my one rep max should be me +~60kg, and the suggestion that upto 30 reps (i assume that's straight off, not 3x10) is merely average seems somewhat demanding.
So, he can't be thinking of Joe.

I train a lot, far more than I climb these days and I will do circa 100 pull ups in a session, but I couldn't do more than 20 in a single set. My 5 rep max at weighted pull ups is 1.25 x BW and 1.8 x BW would be me with Jorden (the guy I'm working with tonight) on my back...
 


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[jwi]

Again,

who would do bench presses in a general conditioning programme for climbing?

madness.

[Sasquatch]

Did you look at or read the Dan John article? 

He differentiates in other sports in order to help identify whether its a strength/weakness/reasonable/etc.  I think the same can be applied to climbing.  Last sunday I was out for a long day of bouldering, and I ended up doing quite a few compression problems.  Monday my Pec were really sore   Would I suggest it as a core component of a climbing training program, no.  Would I suggest it as an area of weakness for many climbers who could see benefits from a few sessions of press training per year, yes.  Especially as you get older, its good for shoulder stability and strengthening. 

[Oldmanmatt]

I would argue that the average climber certainly does need to address the Antagonist (as it is to us) and in so suggesting I'm hardly being controversial.
Amongst those I now meet daily, it is still much neglected in all but the most dedicated.
A regular regimen of Press-ups and Dips would probably cover it though, for most.

I haven't read the DJ article yet, I've been dipping in and out of the thread between clients/groups etc and just arguing with everyone on a post by post basis.... [emoji12]

I think, you need to be balanced. If you are a beast on the Pull up bar, you should be at least Demi-beast at Press-ups/Dips or you are putting yourself at increased risk of injury and long term posture and joint problems and that's not exactly radical either.

I think Steve's benchmarks make sense IN RELATION TO EACH OTHER, in terms of the Agonist/Antagonist relationship. I'm not convinced of his definition of Average (unless he is specifically referring to top level climbers).

I still maintain that 15 x BW  BP is perfectly achievable for most of us (as relatively athletic people compared to the general population), and certainly reasonable within his defined category.
But I think balance is more important than absolute achievement/levels (which Rodma seems to be, balanced I mean).

I also think it unlikely to increase bulk to a point detrimental to climbing ability (unlike all those bulging thighs and calves of the MTB/Road bike addicted).




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[Sasquatch]

I also think it unlikely to increase bulk to a point detrimental to climbing ability (unlike all those bulging thighs and calves of the MTB/Road bike addicted).

Watchu talkin bout fool....  I have to mtn bike to the boulders so they're critical to my climbing.

[rodma]

Pull up claims are so random.

I can do about 47 if  I really kip, if I go a good bit slower (but still use a little momentum to get through the flat spots) it's circa 20, but if I don't cheat at all it's 5.

It's exceptionally hard to be honest when it comes to self measurement.

Range of motion, width of grip, momentum, cheating, writhing around, popping the bar off your chest etc.

We really need a ukb meet up, with a judge present, so that we can get some semi-accurate data relevant to old crusty boulderers.

There are three versions of a "one-armer" that I've seen.
1st is the classic semi strong lock off complete with desperation pike and chin bob
2nd is the full range of motion but with serious kick off the ground, like many of the videos people have posted of their beastmaker feats.
3rd is what I like to call the lorenzo one armer, or just a one armer. You don't see too much evidence of those around.

[Oldmanmatt]

I also think it unlikely to increase bulk to a point detrimental to climbing ability (unlike all those bulging thighs and calves of the MTB/Road bike addicted).

Watchu talkin bout fool....  I have to mtn bike to the boulders so they're critical to my climbing.

[emoji13]


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[a dense loner]

I fully agree about randomness rodma, it's like people saying they can do loads of one arm push ups when in fact they can do none!

[Oldmanmatt]

I fully agree about randomness rodma, it's like people saying they can do loads of one arm push ups when in fact they can do none!

I had to try.

Arm out style, couple ea. very shaky.
Arm in, not even one...

But now I have a new goal in life!

Yay!


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[Nibile]

rodma, for some reason you made me LOL! Considering that it's 32 degrees, I'm at work wearing a suit and I am a walking cluster of DOMS and joint pain, that was a hard task. Thank you, although you bring back memories of when my shoulders and elbows, not only didn't hurt, but they didn't even make audible creacky sound when moving. Unlike now.
So, I decided to go back to training pulling speed and explosiveness with normal and contrast training.
As far as this specific topic goes, I would like to contribute in the least useful way possible.
IMG_1264 by Nibile, on Flickr

[andy_e]

1st is the classic semi strong lock off complete with desperation pike and chin bob

AKA the party one-armer AKA the punter's show-off...

[Oldmanmatt]

On a side note...
I've been taking year 9 groups for  PE sessions.
I am gobsmacked that 14 yearold boys cannot manage 5 press ups on even a single pull up!
The odd chin up (ish) but out of a class of 25, not one pull up.


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