[Fiend]

Personally, and this may not make much sense, but I think we make a mistake in thinking any of this (going climbing etc.) is much about risk. Risk is, to some extent, intrinsic to the fact that we go climbing (as such its a by-product that has to be dealt with) but beyond that its pretty irrelevant and certainly not intrinsic to motivation, experience, pleasure, or reward - for me anyway.

I agree entirely, that's nicely put. Risk is a part of climbing, sometimes it enhances it, sometimes it is just to be dealt with, and occasionally it can be a small part of the motivation, but it is not the main part (although it might be for some people).

[shark]

Having circuits you do regularly and know well makes a big difference. Not only are you not onsighting, you can gauge your form on the day by how things feel. The circuits are never the same but tend to include a few favourite warmups and benchmarks, as well as stuff I've not done or don't remember. It's not so much about having everything wired - but knowing where cruxes are and that there are no nasty surprises. I think it needs a different mentality overall - grades and ticks should not be important, just moving well whatever the grade and finding the right level for your form and the conditions.

You have justified why you feel comfortable doing what you do but not why the occasional soloing session is more dangerous - it is usually still OK to back off when onsighting or repeating something you haven't done for a while but like you imply the chance of getting uncomfortably committed on something is higher. Overall  I still think the risks from frequent (routine) soloing vs occasional less smooth infrequent soloing are less. My outlook is biased by Paul Williams death. He had his trade route solos and was doing Brown's Eliminate for the third time that day IIRC. I drew my lessons from that.       

[Fiend]

Isn't Paul William's death an example of a very low percentage incident though? Hold breaking on gritstone?

[Johnny Brown]

I'm a bit confused Shark, are you agreeing with me or not?

My main argument would be that easy climbing is actually quite a different skill set to hard climbing. One might expect that redpointing 8c would make VS trivially easy, but actually it doesn't work like that. Making VS trivially easy comes from doing loads of mileage at S-HVS.

I never met Paul so can't comment. I've never figured out which hold broke either, though it does cross my mind every time I do the route.

[Oldmanmatt]

JB, I believe you are rationalising the risk away as I mentioned earlier.

Yes, by training, learning, practicing, you reduce the risk to a lower level than the risk would be for a Novice, in flip flops,  and three Martinis in the bank.

Train hard, fight easy.

Except the risk is only partly about you making a mistake and largely about "Accident" and that cannot be mitigated.

In other words, your skill set and experience enable you to down play the risk.

Essential if you are going to undertake a high risk activity, possibly, since paralysing fear is not going to be of much benefit.

I think looking at MR stats will be misleading, or any comparison of accident statistics, for that matter; because those stats will cover everything from "climbers" in flip flops falling off Snowdon, to consummate Pro's.
Before any statistic would be meaningful it would need to be correlated with an accurate number of people engaging in that specific activity.

In other words, how many people engage in Soloing/BASE etc etc and what are the accident rates within those sub groups.

And, if I'm honest, I do like the thrill; even now.

I will go and scramble up/down an unstable cliff, when walking the dog.
I do still put on a wet suit and fins to swim in the storm swells and practice climbing out onto rather unpleasantly sharp rocks.
I just delude myself that by toning down my climbing/diving etc activities I am being sensible.
In exactly the same way I rationalised the risk when I went all in.

I mean, come on.

A 3mtr boulder or Everest, we do it because we are scared, because we know we might get hurt, because we feel more alive dancing on that catastrophe  curve than we do in almost any other aspect of our lives.
It takes will to put that aside for more mundane matters, family, responsibility.

And, there is always some resentment, peeking out from the dark recesses at the back of your mind, when you do.

Some people, just can't put it aside.






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[Johnny Brown]

I am rationalising the risk yes, but I'm not so naive as to think it has gone 'away'. Otherwise I generally agree with you, but I do think the risk level of soloing tend to get overplayed - it carries a stigma of the extreme which isn't always warranted. I don't think me soloing VSs is any different to a VS climber scrambling - except that 'soloing' is a word associated with extreme danger, and scrambling isn't.

I have responsibilities now and I'm aware of them when soloing. But the reduction in grade is more due to a reduction in competence than 'toning it down'. I never toned it that high up in the first place.

And as I pointed out on the first page, Dean died BASE jumping, not soloing. But here we are discussing soloing again...

[shark]

Isn't Paul William's death an example of a very low percentage incident though? Hold breaking on gritstone?

Exactly. One of the multitude of potential low % outcomes that tend to become higher occurring realised outcomes when and because you are a high frequency soloist.

Also I was never clear whether hold breakage was speculation or not.

[bigtuboflard]

I never met Paul so can't comment. I've never figured out which hold broke either, though it does cross my mind every time I do the route.

Mid height flat square jug on/near the arete if I remember rightly. Had never been suspect I don't think but I'd not been on the route for a long time before it failed so couldn't say if it started to sound hollow or similar before failure

[slackline]

A 3mtr boulder or Everest, we do it because we are scared, because we know we might get hurt, because we feel more alive dancing on that catastrophe  curve than we do in almost any other aspect of our lives. its there.

For Everest at least, I've not read what Mallory's thoughts on bouldering were. 

This seems a balanced article summing up some of the points people are going over (and over)...

“It’s a type of alive — not like a party, but like being at one with the world. It’s being in tune,” he said. These athletes “may have more to tell us about what it means to be human than the rest of us.”

[slackline]

A short tribute to Graham Hunt

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZehwcYq9JOw&feature=youtu.be

The Other Man: Graham Hunt (1986-2015)

[slackline]

Clearly

You're getting the hang of this "stating the obvious" aren't you. 

[dave]

A short tribute to Graham Hunt

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZehwcYq9JOw&feature=youtu.be

The Other Man: Graham Hunt (1986-2015)

Graham Hunt was a G who rolled silent like lasagna.

Quote.
 
Of.
 
The.
 
Year.

[cheque]

Graham Hunt was a G who rolled silent like lasagna.

Quote.
 
Of.
 
The.
 
Year.

The year being 2011. It's from a Lil Wayne tune.

[Offwidth]

Stats

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20632737

and Brain Chemistry

http://blog.alpineinstitute.com/2014/11/book-review-alchemy-of-action-by-doug.html

Yet this all loses the human angle.... in the end celebration of their lives following clear choices seems more apt to me than talk of waste. I'm sure we all know many who waste choices and live a life with no colour and many more (especially in the third world) for whom such choice would be the heights of luxury.

[slackline]

Stats

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20632737[/url]

Google Scholar points to a PDF for those interested.

[shark]

Isn't Paul William's death an example of a very low percentage incident though? Hold breaking on gritstone?

Exactly. One of the multitude of potential low % outcomes that tend to become higher occurring realised outcomes when and because you are a high frequency soloist.

Also I was never clear whether hold breakage was speculation or not.

In your previous post, replying to JB, you wrote this: "Overall  I still think the risks from frequent (routine) soloing vs occasional less smooth infrequent soloing are less." Was that a typo?

Yes it was  (more or less)

[kelvin]

A 3mtr boulder or Everest, we do it because we are scared, because we know we might get hurt, because we feel more alive dancing on that catastrophe  curve than we do in almost any other aspect of our lives.

  Safe to say we climb for very different reasons then Matt. If you'd have said that about being in a decent moshpit, then I'd have agreed. There is nowhere I feel so alive, I've broken bones, bled, feared for my life and enjoyed some of the most intense moments of my existence in one. Climbing is so far removed from that, for me anyway, and when I solo (at my trad onsight limit) it's the calmness, the focus and the pleasure that comes from that single state of mind. If there's any sense of fear, then I'm downclimbing.

Mr Popp spoke for me when he said " Risk is... pretty irrelevant and certainly not intrinsic to motivation, experience, pleasure, or reward - for me anyway".

[andy_e]

Mr Popp spoke for me when he said " Risk is... pretty irrelevant and certainly not intrinsic to motivation, experience, pleasure, or reward - for me anyway".

I concur.

[Fiend]

I want to hear Kelvin's top moshpits now!

[Oldmanmatt]

A 3mtr boulder or Everest, we do it because we are scared, because we know we might get hurt, because we feel more alive dancing on that catastrophe  curve than we do in almost any other aspect of our lives.

  Safe to say we climb for very different reasons then Matt. If you'd have said that about being in a decent moshpit, then I'd have agreed. There is nowhere I feel so alive, I've broken bones, bled, feared for my life and enjoyed some of the most intense moments of my existence in one. Climbing is so far removed from that, for me anyway, and when I solo (at my trad onsight limit) it's the calmness, the focus and the pleasure that comes from that single state of mind. If there's any sense of fear, then I'm downclimbing.

Mr Popp spoke for me when he said " Risk is... pretty irrelevant and certainly not intrinsic to motivation, experience, pleasure, or reward - for me anyway".

Right. How to respond without it sounding like some sort of personal attack?
Dunno. But this is not meant to be.

I do not possess the answers to everything in life (not very much, really; I just wonder about things and tend to do that out loud (or on a keyboard) and am rarely wedded to any particular position/stance (this irritates Dense greatly, which is nice)).

I think we might be at slight cross purposes, relating to the definition of fear and the rationalising of fear.

If you feel no fear, why do it?

You could perform the exact same physical movements, inches above soft mats, with a top rope and a team of spotters.

But, that wouldn't cut it, would it?

You need (I posit) to be in a position where you are controlling your fear and your environment and pitting your skill against the obvious danger. The relative difference in perceived fear between the Mosh pit and the rock face is dependent on the lack of control you exert in the former, I'd suggest.

It can't just be the climbing moves, the height and exposure must contribute to the satisfaction, surely?

Surely, the pleasure is in mastering the fear, to perform an act of skill and physical poetry in a dangerous place?




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[Fiend]

Fear and risk are quite different. For that matter, fear and height/exposure/etc are quite different.

[butters]

For that matter, fear and height/exposure/etc are quite different.

They may well be different but height and exposure are related to the level of fear are they not? There are a series of other factors that will also come into play as well so the above is an oversimplification but the point stands in my mind. 

[kelvin]

You could perform the exact same physical movements, inches above soft mats, with a top rope and a team of spotters.

But, that wouldn't cut it, would it?

No it wouldn't, not at all.

The main reason being a team of spotters - I think it's quite possible that I'm generally anti-social when it comes to climbing well. And I emphasise the 'climbing well' part. I'm too easily distracted when there're people about, new people especially. Too gregarious and it affects my climbing dramatically. Add a new crag into the mix, with new views to look at and I may as well resign the day to a learning experience... I won't climb well.

My path into climbing was via scrambling, then winter climbing (solo) and I'm not much bothered by exposure. I can remember the moment I decided I needed to learn to climb - I was on what I now know as Groove Above Severe 4b up above Idwal Slabs, just following my nose and I got to the crux of that particular climb (unaware it was even a climb) and thought 'mmmm, better learn to climb I reckons, as there must be a proper way or move here but damned if I know what it is'. I was having a great day, so pottered up that bit once I'd worked it out and carried on over Cneiffon Arete.

And therein lies the reason I still like to potter about on my own - it's what I did when I first climbed. I like the isolation, the freedom from distraction, the focus, my own pace, the calmness. No distractions. It's also why I love bouldering on my own. Wandering around Font on my own last year was pretty magical. I put a rope on and instantly, I'm far removed from the reason I started to climb in the first place - to be able to do big mountain ridges on my own.

I can't comment on hard soloing but I have soloed at my limit happily, with no fear. It's the calmness, that being in the moment I enjoy. Where no past or future is in your head, just the now. It's like, dunno, amazing. It's not that 'flow' thing that people go on about, I guess you have to be a good climber to experience that but that's why I climb. To be able to move confidently and quickly in the mountains - fear hasn't nothing to do with it, at least as far as I can see.

*for fiend

Prodigy / Slipnot / Enter Shikari / Bullet for my Valentine

[webbo]

Is it really at your limit.
t your limit would be something like Gabe Regan taking several long falls on the lead on Moonwalk, then soloing it a week or so later.

[Will Hunt]

Grimer's typically brilliant account of an encounter with Dean from the other channel:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=7367