[cha1n]

From a purely 'no edge' perspective, I don't think they perform well on tiny sharp edges like a shoe with an edge would. If the edges are small and slopey then they perform well, probably better than a normal shoe.

I'd sometimes struggle on those moves where you're nearly full extension and really pointing your toes and only the very tip of your toes are keep the tension, whereas an edged shoe helps a bit in this situation. Would be interested to hear what other opinions are though, especially as Ondra onsighted lots of hard stuff at Raven Tor in his Speedsters.

[moose]

Can anyone with experience of the harder to get Sportiva's, guess / say which would be best for RPs on UK sport (Malham mainly) - nuthin' smears and tiny spikes etc - Testerossa, Solution, or Genius?  I've been using Miura VSs for a few years and generally happy with them but getting slightly annoyed with their short window of goodness for certain routes - I have several pairs that are slightly too spongy at the toe-tips for a particular route but otherwise in decent condition! Wondering if there's anything better out there.

[petejh]

In exactly the same position - miura VS's for the last 5 or so years and happy with them during the 'window', until they go a bit sloppy and become warm-up / trad shoes.

[Nibile]

Using Ondra as a reference is completely useless, given that he does something completely different from what we do.
I've had a pair od Speedsters and I have to say that despite being gifted (the shoes, not me  ) and looking super cool, they are a terrible shoe.
Empty heel. No tension under the foot arch (I resolved to put a velcro loop around to keep them in place). Plus, they were super painful (pushing down hard on edges or even smears, you were pushing basically with your toenails). And finally, when pushing down they used to suddenly slip off due to the rounded point.

I am becoming a sadder bastard by the day, but I think that these new Genius are just another glittery method to get money from climbers. Now, where are my EB's and Mariacher? 

[Stu Littlefair]

I've never used the testarossa but have used the Futura and Solution.

You'll find the solution pretty similar to the Miuras. A bit less good for extreme edging, better for toe-hooks and smears. The heel is different; some love it, some hate it. It won't last any better than the Miuras.

I loved Futuras on vert limestone like Malham or the Tor, especially if bought small. They are much softer but they feel very precise and edge very well *most* of the time. However, not everyone gets on with them and because the toe box is rounder, you occasionally find a slot or pocket in which they are simply awful. In terms of longevity they seem to go on forever, unless you tear the narrow rubber strip on the toe, so beware if you're a foot-dragger.

I have high hopes for the Genius as I've heard they are stiffer than the Futura which suits me. I'm waiting for a pair.

[petejh]

Cool good info Stu (i.e. I'd like a pair so that's what I wanted to hear versus ignoring what I didn't..)

I'm wondering if differences in peoples' natural 'big toe strength' comes into play with no-edge shoes..

[ghisino]

I'd sometimes struggle on those moves where you're nearly full extension and really pointing your toes and only the very tip of your toes are keep the tension, whereas an edged shoe helps a bit in this situation. Would be interested to hear what other opinions are though

ironically, for me that's one kind of thing they do ok to exceptionally well on certain kinds of footholds (tiny "smedges", and small protrusions), inclinations (near vertical) and when used correctly (really frontpointing with that portion of rubber that comes up towards the toe hooking part, heels fairly high)

the real difference in my case come from the kind of foothold: if it has a sharp, straight, regular edge, and it is wider than two or three centimeters, a traditionally edged shoe works better.

demo here :
the foothold where i slip off once is arguably the best of the whole boulder problem, and would have felt like a ledge in anasazis, or any other edging shoe. in futuras it was tricky to gradually put pressure on it until it sticked.
Yet the two footholds before it are very marginal, and especially the second (left foot) felt totally useless in pinks.

[moose]

Cheers Stu, might try on a pair of the Futuras and hope the Genius hits some local shops - sounds like the Solutions would just be a snazzier way to fail, rather than possibly game-changing.

[cha1n]

ironically, for me that's one kind of thing they do ok to exceptionally well on certain kinds of footholds (tiny "smedges", and small protrusions), inclinations (near vertical) and when used correctly (really frontpointing with that portion of rubber that comes up towards the toe hooking part, heels fairly high)

Yeh, I meant steep limestone (roofs) or dead vertical/slightly overhanging on tiny sharp crimps. I find these are great on any sandstone, even small features as they mould so well. Most of the time I grippy rock I don't really look for a foothold, just press in wherever is the best position for me feet.

I too struggle with the Muira VS. They just turn into smearing shoes with no support after not very long. Fingers crossed I get on better with the futura.

[moose]

Let us know how the Futuras compare - what sizing have you opted for, same as the Miura VS?

[cha1n]

Will do. I've ordered futuras the same size as my speedsters, which is 1 size down from what I wear muiras. That being said, I never used to wear my muiras excessively tight as I found the toebox quite high volume, there was lots of room for my toes to curl up into. The speedster toebox is very high volume too so hopefully the futuras fit similarly.

[blamo]

In exactly the same position - miura VS's for the last 5 or so years and happy with them during the 'window', until they go a bit sloppy and become warm-up / trad shoes.

Do you know where the miura VS's end up stretching out for you?  I found that many of my shoes blow out on the outer side of the toe-box.  If this is the case, then solutions tend to stay "good" a bit longer, because of the rubber toe hooking pad they keep their structure a bit better.

I didn't have great luck with speedsters or futuras.  However, I think if you have patience they could work really well on rounded edges.  For soft shoes I found the pythons to be a nice compromise, they aren't lined, but still have an edge.

The testarossa heels always seem kind of baggy.  I wonder how the Genius will compare.  The front half of the testarossas have always felt awesome, great edging while still soft.

[the_dom]

I didn't have great luck with speedsters or futuras.  However, I think if you have patience they could work really well on rounded edges.  For soft shoes I found the pythons to be a nice compromise, they aren't lined, but still have an edge.

I'm with you - I think Pythons are the best shoes Sportiva makes. That said, I've just bought a pair of Instinct VSs, so it will be interesting to see how they compare.

[moose]

In exactly the same position - miura VS's for the last 5 or so years and happy with them during the 'window', until they go a bit sloppy and become warm-up / trad shoes.

Do you know where the miura VS's end up stretching out for you?  I found that many of my shoes blow out on the outer side of the toe-box.  If this is the case, then solutions tend to stay "good" a bit longer, because of the rubber toe hooking pad they keep their structure a bit better.

For me, the Miura VSs don't so much stretch or bag out, rather lose stiffness at the toe-tips - as though there isn't enough rubber where the rand meets the sole.  I remember the Katanas infamously used to develop holes in the same location. 

I only notice it on moves where I am smearing at full leg extension on distant spikes and nubbins.  Unfortunately, my method for the route I have been working for the last year (and probably will for most of this year) has a few of these moves towards the end of the crux sequence.  More of a logistical problem than anything - ensuring I have always have pair of worn-in-but-not-worn-out VSs ready.  So, would be interested in any shoe that is as good as worn-in VSs, but has a longer performance window. 

Btw what's the sizing like on Pythons compared to Miuras, do they stretch much.  I loved the Venoms - recall that you had to get them in ludicrously small sizes though.

[the_dom]

Btw what's the sizing like on Pythons compared to Miuras, do they stretch much.  I loved the Venoms - recall that you had to get them in ludicrously small sizes though.

These days I wear the Pythons in the same size as Miura VSs, but I've worn them a full size smaller in the past.

[hstmoore]

I've been wearing the futura for a while and have mainly just been using them indoors as after about 45 mins of wearing them, the arch of my foot (towards the sole) really starts to ache.

I've assumed this is because they are very soft and so don't provide much support to my foot. Does this happen to anyone else?

[moose]

Just realised that it's pay day, now getting a terrible urge to buy some Futuras - I might have lots of pairs of shoes "active" (VSs for routes, Anasazis for warming up and grit, Dragons for very steep) but the idea of something completely different really appeals.

[Stu Littlefair]

I've been wearing the futura for a while and have mainly just been using them indoors as after about 45 mins of wearing them, the arch of my foot (towards the sole) really starts to ache.

I don't get this. My Futuras do become unbearably painful if my toenails are too long, but are very comfy if I keep my toenails short.

[Muenchener]

Btw what's the sizing like on Pythons compared to Miuras, do they stretch much.  I loved the Venoms - recall that you had to get them in ludicrously small sizes though.

These days I wear the Pythons in the same size as Miura VSs, but I've worn them a full size smaller in the past.

I go half a size down on Pythons vs Miura Laces (no epxerience with Miura Velcros)

[blamo]

Btw what's the sizing like on Pythons compared to Miuras, do they stretch much.  I loved the Venoms - recall that you had to get them in ludicrously small sizes though.

I wear a 41 in Miura VS and 39.5 in the Python.  The pythons are not lined so they do stretch a bit. 

[petejh]

I'd just like to point out that I started the three hottest topics on ukb - shoes, buy-to-let and JB's imminent metabolic disease.

[slackline]

I'd just like to point out that I started the three hottest topics on ukb - shoes, buy-to-let and JB's imminent metabolic disease.

Genius!

[Stubbs]

You're like the anti-Sloper!

[moose]

I'd just like to point out that I started the three hottest topics on ukb - shoes, buy-to-let and JB's imminent metabolic disease.

Maybe we should combine them, "Due to buy-to-let, my rent is very expensive and makes healthy eating unaffordable, the resultant metabolic disease has caused my toe-nails to fall off, will I still be able to wear no-edge shoes?"

[Duma]

Pythons are less supportive and stretch more than futuras, I quite liked them but the futuras are much better imo. I'm on my third or fourth pair now and can't remember when I last felt a different shoe would help. However everyone I know who uses them took a while to get used to them - guess this is the no edge thing - but even the most resistant have come round. Obv only if they're the right shape for you - the toe box is def lower volume than Solutions. last ages given rubber thickness too. the straps are stupidly thin but since they've started coating the eyelets (only first gen didn't have this afaik) they seem to last ok. Only reason to get the genius would seem to be more variety of fit offered by lace up.