[Hydraulic Man]

On another note I don't see many comments about the bolts that have gone in on Garage buttress that interfere with some of the older trad routes. Matrix and Flycatcher been the routes in question.......Perhaps worthy of a separate thread.

The topos are on Gibson's site. Can you be specific about which bolts on which routes interfere

http://www.sportsclimbs.co.uk/mainpages/peak/Garage%20Buttress.htm

I recall Neil Foster has passed comment on some of the new bolts interfering with existing routes at one of the previous Peak Area meets and was considering whether to remove them.

One bolt on Dreamcatcher above the Pendulum break is on Flycatcher as is that routes belay. Flycatcher hardly a trade route but does not deserve retroing having had probably less than 5 true onsight ascents and if I recall from the sands of time the second was by NF and onsight!

2 bolts in start of Reloaded are in Matrixs starting groove. Again no trade route but a good bold route in its day. Not sure if I Hate you bolts are interfering with the end of Matrix travers either.

The first pitch of Aquiline must surely have bolts in now due to new route down that end of crag.

Not living in the UK anymore what is the actual position on retro bolts in the Peak nowadays?

[shark]

One bolt on Dreamcatcher above the Pendulum break is on Flycatcher as is that routes belay. Flycatcher hardly a trade route but does not deserve retroing having had probably less than 5 true onsight ascents and if I recall from the sands of time the second was by NF and onsight!

2 bolts in start of Reloaded are in Matrixs starting groove. Again no trade route but a good bold route in its day. Not sure if I Hate you bolts are interfering with the end of Matrix travers either.

The first pitch of Aquiline must surely have bolts in now due to new route down that end of crag.

Not living in the UK anymore what is the actual position on retro bolts in the Peak nowadays?

Good question. In a state of indecision I would suggest. 

Specifically all the new routes you mention are the work of Gary Gibson who is a law unto himself and it comes as no surprise that he has insensitively bolted them. The problem with glue-ins are they are much harder to remove than bolts with hangers. I was surprised how many were climbing at Garage Buttress when I drove past on Saturday despite how friable the routes are. Mind you they have to be an improvement on the Matlock quarry routes.

Talking more generally the number of people actively climbing lime trad outside the honeypot crags like High Tor are an increasingly rare breed who  take gardening equipment just to access the base of some of the routes. The lack of repeats apart from making the routes overgrown also means that old paths disappear and de facto right of access is harder to argue for with landowners. This issue comes up at every other Paek meeting and whilst the much delayed Peal Lime guide may help a bit I'm not holding my breath that it will reverse the trend. Conversely by (retro)bolting a route it becomes popular and with traffic stays clean. I'm beginning to think that sadly wholesale retro bolting might prove to be the least worst outcome for hundreds of old neglected overgrown trad routes.

[Jaspersharpe]

That sounds like an outstandingly shit idea.

If it's accepted that routes can be retroed just because they aren't currently climbed then you're changing the playing field completely and you can guarantee some choad will take it as Carte Blanche to start sticking bolts in anything they like.

"Oh it had weeds growing out of it and was dusty as fuck so obviously nobody's done it for ages....".

I'd prefer these routes that nobody is climbing to be left alone if it means that all the classic lime trad routes stay as they are. Go down the route you're suggesting and I can't see that they will.

[Johnny Brown]

I'd prefer these routes that nobody is climbing to be left alone if it means that all the classic lime trad routes stay as they are. Go down the route you're suggesting and I can't see that they will.

Welcome to 2014, Jasper, and the thick end of the wedge. It's very sad. The support for widespread retrobolting is pretty limited but there seems to be a broad air of resignation that it is inevitable, as the same line gets trotted out that 'something needs to be done'. Every year more bolts go in the trad crags.

[Duncan campbell]

Conversely by (retro)bolting a route it becomes popular and with traffic stays clean. I'm beginning to think that sadly wholesale retro bolting might prove to be the least worst outcome for hundreds of old neglected overgrown trad routes.

Just out of interest, what is wrong with routes being reclaimed by nature if no-one wants to climb them?

Does every bit of rock have to be climbed?

I always think it is a weird view that if a route isn't climbed anymore we should bolt it so it gets climbed more.

I understand that it's frustrating when a good trad route is dirty and unclimbable/enjoyable for those that want to climb it, but surely by bolting it effectively does the same thing for those wanting to go do the route?

Its good to let nature take something back if no-one wants to go do the routes enough.

Dunc

[dave]

Conversely by (retro)bolting a route it becomes popular and with traffic stays clean. I'm beginning to think that sadly wholesale retro bolting might prove to be the least worst outcome for hundreds of old neglected overgrown trad routes.

Just out of interest, what is wrong with routes being reclaimed by nature if no-one wants to climb them?

Does every bit of rock have to be climbed?

I always think it is a weird view that if a route isn't climbed anymore we should bolt it so it gets climbed more.

I understand that it's frustrating when a good trad route is dirty and unclimbable/enjoyable for those that want to climb it, but surely by bolting it effectively does the same thing for those wanting to go do the route?

Its good to let nature take something back if no-one wants to go do the routes enough.

Dunc

+1

Especially as a mid grade trad route in variable becomes a warmup sport route, and hence will get polished to shit. Doesn't seem a fair swap.

[Teaboy]

Just out of interest, what is wrong with routes being reclaimed by nature if no-one wants to climb them?

Does every bit of rock have to be climbed?

I always think it is a weird view that if a route isn't climbed anymore we should bolt it so it gets climbed more.

I understand that it's frustrating when a good trad route is dirty and unclimbable/enjoyable for those that want to climb it, but surely by bolting it effectively does the same thing for those wanting to go do the route?

Its good to let nature take something back if no-one wants to go do the routes enough.

Dunc

Obviously routes can be left unclimbed and they frequently are, go on any one star or less Lakes extreme and you'll see this for yourself. However, if you have rock that is not being used in an area where there is massive demand for rock it makes sense to consider redeveloping. I'm not talking about trad classics nor stuff on Chee Tor but there are plenty of routes that were climbed once by the first ascensionist, who had their moment of glory, but have barely been repeated but now we are expected treat said ascent as some sort of religious artefact. In many cases there is little of the original ascent that is worth protecting be it the ethics (probably not ground up, often involving fixed gear) or the finished product (shit, over grown route on dubious fixed gear). BTW I'm only talking about specific crap routes on limestone here, I think sea cliffs, mountain routes and grit have never been safer from the bolt and let's face it that's all anyone cares about, isn't it?

After all, UK ethics  seem to begin and end with the bolt when to my mind there are some things genuinely worth preserving like the Range West ground up ethic which seems to have gone for a burton without even a murmur of dissenting voices. Similarly, that cutting edge sea cliff routes are still being put up using pegs seems a bit more pernicious to me than giving some routes that no one cares about (other than on some abstract moral level) a new lease of life.

[T_B]

After all, UK ethics  seem to begin and end with the bolt when to my mind there are some things genuinely worth preserving like the Range West ground up ethic which seems to have gone for a burton without even a murmur of dissenting voices. Similarly, that cutting edge sea cliff routes are still being put up using pegs seems a bit more pernicious to me than giving some routes that no one cares about (other than on some abstract moral level) a new lease of life.

+ 1

Peak lime is mainly pretty scratty, littered with dubious ironmongery and half of it's wet most of the year. The war on ethics is better fought elsewhere IMHO.

[petejh]

Obviously routes can be left unclimbed and they frequently are, go on any one star or less Lakes extreme and you'll see this for yourself. However, if you have rock that is not being used in an area where there is massive demand for rock it makes sense to consider redeveloping. I'm not talking about trad classics nor stuff on Chee Tor but there are plenty of routes that were climbed once by the first ascensionist, who had their moment of glory, but have barely been repeated but now we are expected treat said ascent as some sort of religious artefact. In many cases there is little of the original ascent that is worth protecting be it the ethics (probably not ground up, often involving fixed gear) or the finished product (shit, over grown route on dubious fixed gear). BTW I'm only talking about specific crap routes on limestone here, I think sea cliffs, mountain routes and grit have never been safer from the bolt and let's face it that's all anyone cares about, isn't it?

After all, UK ethics  seem to begin and end with the bolt when to my mind there are some things genuinely worth preserving like the Range West ground up ethic which seems to have gone for a burton without even a murmur of dissenting voices. Similarly, that cutting edge sea cliff routes are still being put up using pegs seems a bit more pernicious to me than giving some routes that no one cares about (other than on some abstract moral level) a new lease of life.

This. There's lots more, but essentially this.

Apparently it's perfectly acceptable to the majority of climbers in the UK to go out to Rhoscolyn, abseil down a sea cliff and hammer a shit load of non stainless-steel into a trad route to facilitate an ascent. Then inform the uk climbing media that you've just climbed an E9 trad route and accept the inevitable plaudits, without any debate about the style and how it might be highly questionable. Then leave without a second thought to the fate of the rapidly rusting junk that you've left behind and that facilitated your 'hard trad' ascent? Wow. Really? Cue affirmation of our great ethic, 5 minutes of glory in the climbing media, and clueless punters thinking trad E9 is cool, because it says so on the web and in the rags.
No debate about that? Perhaps because all eyes are too heavily focused on keeping the wolves from the door of British trad climbing - or in other words, poor routes originally climbed in poor style with poor fixed gear which not even the most hairiest of shirt wearers seems to want to unenjoy now - I mean much rather keep these things in their preserved state (or nothing, by god) than have them altered and re-labelled 'SPORT'. I know we love our sense of history in this country but...

There's a real debate to be had about more than just retrobolting old pseudo-trad routes. Perhaps people are too dumbed-down from being spoon-fed sponsored climber's shite 24/7 via an unquestioning media to ask their own questions. Consider this controversial point - the media (you Duncan) have the ability to influence how some people think and behave; what would the likely impact be of adopting a more questioning attitude towards claims of 'significant' trad ascents if they were heavily pegged, especially sea cliff routes?

[Johnny Brown]

to my mind there are some things genuinely worth preserving like the Range West ground up ethic which seems to have gone for a burton without even a murmur of dissenting voices.

Totally agree with that. I was taught that the same ethic was the rule on Cilan, but Craig Dorys is now headpoint central.

I do think though that this is part of a general ethical decline that the thick end of the bolting wedge has a lot to do with - see this from UKC today:

Yes indeed, I'm all for convenience, I hate long walk offs in tight rock shoes! If it's an Alpine route or a sea cliff, getting down (off the route or to the bottom of it) is part of the adventure. Whereas on UK inland crags getting down is just a nuisance

To me the fundamental point of trad is moving through a found environment (whether entirely natural or a historical mix of quarrying etc) using my own skill and craft. Once someone has gone to the crag with a drill to makes things a bit safer and more convenient for me the whole point is lost; the environment becomes an extension of the nannying state I'm trying to escape. I've not got so much interest in exploring that.

Probably worth a thread split though.

[shark]

Probably worth a thread split though.

Done

[Falling Down]

"but Craig Dorys is now headpoint central"

Wowsers.... Is that really the case?

[mrjonathanr]

[
To me the fundamental point of trad is moving through a found environment (whether entirely natural or a historical mix of quarrying etc) using my own skill and craft.

+1

[cheque]

[
To me the fundamental point of trad is moving through a found environment (whether entirely natural or a historical mix of quarrying etc) using my own skill and craft.

Not sure if words like skill or craft accurately describe my climbing, but I totally agree with this too.

the Range West ground up ethic which seems to have gone for a burton without even a murmur of dissenting voices.

First I've heard of this. What a shame.

[Duncan campbell]

Some really interesting points made above, and I didn't mean to single you out Shark, I have had these feelings towards many climbers' attitudes towards retrobolting for some time its just you wrote them down at a time I saw them... Can I ask what made you come to this conclusion?

Very interesting points about headpointing and the decline of the ground-up ethic, something I had never considered. More that some individuals wanted to pre-practice whilst others did not.

Personally I don't see the attraction of headpointing (except I am strangely drawn to Bloodlust at Shining Clough - Unlikely I'll ever go up there and headpoint it though).

However, I see a difference between bolting and headpointing, which is that one of them has an impact on other people's experience and the other to a much lesser or non-existant extent. Though I do agree we should be encouraging and trying to maintain areas with G-up ethics, I'm not going to be out there doing these cutting edge routes so don't feel like I can dictate in what style somebody climbs. Its their lives on the line and as long as you are happy with how you did it and didn't damage the rock or unnecessarily bolt it then I wouldn't feel comfortable telling anyone the way they climbed route x was wrong.

Johnny Brown's comment about trad climbing relying on your personal skill/craft to see you right through adventurous situations is something I have always agreed with but never actually articulated in such a clear way, even in my own head, I definitely agree with his sentiments though don't think it through as deeply. If I'm out trad climbing and I do a load of ace pitches and find a fixed lower-off meaning I don't have to do some crappy/loose/etc pitch and can instead have a chocolate biscuit sooner, then I am all for it - but I wouldn't want to see it everywhere - I didn't agree with the Millstone bolt but haven't done enough climbing there to feel like I could state my opinion strongly.

I guess at the very end of the day whilst climbing is basically the best thing ever, it's not the be all and end all?

Fingers crossed common sense and a good ethic will prevail for many years to come.

[shark]

Some really interesting points made above, and I didn't mean to single you out Shark, I have had these feelings towards many climbers' attitudes towards retrobolting for some time its just you wrote them down at a time I saw them... Can I ask what made you come to this conclusion?

I don't feel singled out and I'm not sure I'm entirely concluded but the talk at the last Peak Area meet about overgrown trad routes  got me thinking - again. For a start it is happening. In addition to Garage Buttress  parts of Stoney West, High Tor Right Wing and Deep Dale have been Gibsonised ie an industrial approach to cleaning and bolting. Some of them are new routes, some of the old routes will have the odd bolt in them and in some cases old trad routes get renamed as new sport routes. Not many are complaining except first ascentionists like me and Hydraulic who had our routes buggered about with and a few others of the era like Neil. Everyone else is voting with the their feet and repeating the routes glad to have a new playground. Perhaps it is the way to go.

To take an example there is a buttress right of Central Buttress which I climbed on in the mid 80's. Back then the routes had been recently put up so where clean and one of which (Scoopy Little Number) was excellent. A buttress like that could be cleaned again and if bolted would stay clean through traffic with a range of sport climbs in the 5-6b range. Why not? It probably doesn't even register with most people that it even exists.

[dave]

Not many are complaining except first ascentionists like me and Hydraulic who had our routes buggered about with and a few others of the era like Neil. Everyone else is voting with the their feet and repeating the routes glad to have a new playground. Perhaps it is the way to go.

There's also a lot who are voting with their feet by not going and doing the routes, and also those who simply don't know what has been happening.

[slackline]

Not many are complaining except first ascentionists like me and Hydraulic who had our routes buggered about with and a few others of the era like Neil. Everyone else is voting with the their feet and repeating the routes glad to have a new playground. Perhaps it is the way to go.

There's also a lot who are voting with their feet by not going and doing the routes, and also those who simply don't know what has been happening.

How many of those not going and doing the routes are actively doing so until such time as they are on form/ready for the challenge?  Are you?  Lets have a short and quick show of hands?

Or is it just ignorance due to lack of guidebooks covering the areas (as not everyone will know where to find the information online)?  Would the long awaited BMC guide rejuvenate these long forgotten areas?  Does the most recent Rockfax cover all these areas in technicolour glory or focus on the existing honeypots (don't own a copy)?

I generally don't 'cause a) I'm shit and don't want to scare or injure myself as most of the routes are too hard for me; b) haven't a clue where the majority are not owning any Rockfax guides beyond the old Peak Bouldering one.  I've the 1987 Stoney Guide (and the 2004 From Horseshoe to Harpur Hill), and over the last few years my forays on to Peak Limestone trad have been at High Tor, Stoney and Ravensdale and one day in Dovedale.

[ChrisC]

There's also a lot who are voting with their feet by not going and doing...

Many people don't do many things, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily voting with their feet and making an active protest.

[dave]

There's also a lot who are voting with their feet by not going and doing...

Many people don't do many things, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily voting with their feet and making an active protest.

I didn't say people not doing the routes, which is the vast majority if the population of the earth, are doing do deliberately as that would be absurd. However there are some people who will know about the routes but have no interest in climbing retrobolted trad routes, who unless they either feel motivated enough to moan online or chop the bolts, won't get heard in this debate.

[shark]

Not many are complaining except first ascentionists like me and Hydraulic who had our routes buggered about with and a few others of the era like Neil. Everyone else is voting with the their feet and repeating the routes glad to have a new playground. Perhaps it is the way to go.

There's also a lot who are voting with their feet by not going and doing the routes, and also those who simply don't know what has been happening.

Are they simply not voting or just selecting the pain au raisin / pink Anasazi option. Voting against could involve removing the bolts or raising the issue at BMC meetings or on the forums or best of all going out and cleaning and climbing all those neglected trad routes (use them or lose them?).

At the moment there is largely a vacuum between (principally) Gary and Nature (Gary loves a vacuum). We have a set of guidelines but no overall position as such on how we want to use all that currently unclimbed rock despite the popularity of sport routes.



   

[abarro81]

I have no views on shitty chossy Gibson routes, but +1 on what Pete said about putting new pegs into sea cliffs being total bullshit. I was surprised Hazel didn't get more shit for that. I don't trad climb nowadays due to an unhealthy obsession with sport climbing, but when I did I always thought pegs on sea cliffs sucked - I remember looking at a crag in the Pembroke North guide that was full of *** E5s and 6s, then realising they all had about 10 pegs in from over a decade before so if you wanted to go do them in their guidebook state you'd have to hammer new pegs in every few years. Better to take them out and have it as a E7 or bolt the fucker if you want a clipup (the former being a much better option).

[cheque]

I generally don't 'cause a) I'm shit and don't want to scare or injure myself as most of the routes are too hard for me;

There's plenty of opportunity to scare and/ or injure yourself on overgrown low-grade Peak Lime trad routes too.

[shark]

Just out of interest, what is wrong with routes being reclaimed by nature if no-one wants to climb them?

Does every bit of rock have to be climbed?

I always think it is a weird view that if a route isn't climbed anymore we should bolt it so it gets climbed more.

I understand that it's frustrating when a good trad route is dirty and unclimbable/enjoyable for those that want to climb it, but surely by bolting it effectively does the same thing for those wanting to go do the route?

Its good to let nature take something back if no-one wants to go do the routes enough.

Dunc

Been cogitating on this. I don't think it is good to let nature take the route back unless the nature involves protected fauna/flora.

Brambles and ivy don't get my sympathy vote and Nature doesn't care - in fact Nature doesn't exist except as a human construct. Lagers can elaborate..

If trad climbers aren't cleaning certain buttresses and climbing them (and in many cases haven't done so for decades) their moral authority with respect to what happens with those buttresses is diminished.

It is dog in a mangerish to effectively say I have no intention on playing my trad games on those buttresses but I'm not letting you play your sport games on them either.

 

[slackline]

There's also a lot who are voting with their feet by not going and doing...

Many people don't do many things, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily voting with their feet and making an active protest.

I didn't say people not doing the routes, which is the vast majority if the population of the earth, are doing do deliberately as that would be absurd. However there are some people who will know about the routes but have no interest in climbing retrobolted trad routes, who unless they either feel motivated enough to moan online or chop the bolts, won't get heard in this debate.

Lets rephrase my question then (which was trying to tactfully ask a similar thing)...

Of those who know about the routes in question, how many feel motivated enough to go out and climb them in their current state?


I had a think about this general bolting debate on the cycle to work...

How many people climb the trad routes in Gordale?  On the log-book there are loads of E3-E6 6a-6b *** routes with a light smattering of logged ascents* compared to the bolted sports routes there.  The same is true of Malham or Kilnsey,  The former has tons of 7's with hundreds of logged ascents but with very few ascents of the trad routes on the wings (the one place I have climbed at Malham 'cause I can't climb F7's) the same is true at Kilnsey where the sports 7's all have more logged ascents than the **/*** trad E3-E6 6a-6b routes.

If you can climb F7's you should in theory be able to climb English 6a-6b routes, but that doesn't appear to be what is happening.  People are voting with their feet and climb bolted routes for whatever reason (probably they don't want to stick their neck out on dirty routes with dodgy old fixed gear).  Not picking on anyone at all but way of example, why is Shark working Oak when there are all these great adventurous trad routes he could be scaring himself silly on, preserving the adventure using his skill and craft to float through the found environment? One reason might be that Shark has already climbed them and is after a harder challenge, which is fine, but then why not go for the harder trad routes? (no need to explain yourself, you're doing what you want and thats fine)

What about Ravens Tor?  I'm not intimately familiar with its history, but weren't a lot of those routes originally done as aid, then freed on the pegs?  Then someone decided "this is dumb, those pegs are shit, lets put some bolts in and create a sports crag".  Just because the resulting routes are high in the grade scale is not at all a justification for doing this there and not at other easier crags.

That Gary Gibson is bolting some lines that weigh in at the lowly 5's and 6's is neither here nor there the principle is the same. 

There's plenty of opportunity to scare and/ or injure yourself on overgrown low-grade Peak Lime trad routes too.

I know, I found out on the tottering choss of Mealystopholes.


* Obviously there is no way of assessing data which is not available.