[kc]

Nice to see that this thread has been split, as the usual suspects like to turn an informative post about the Peak Bolt Fund (for middle to high grade SPORT climbs and required access lower offs)) into a debate about bolting trad routes or Gary's antics.

On another note I don't see many comments about the bolts that have gone in on Garage buttress that interfere with some of the older trad routes. Matrix and Flycatcher been the routes in question.......Perhaps worthy of a separate thread.

The topos are on Gibson's site. Can you be specific about which bolts on which routes interfere

http://www.sportsclimbs.co.uk/mainpages/peak/Garage%20Buttress.htm

I recall Neil Foster has passed comment on some of the new bolts interfering with existing routes at one of the previous Peak Area meets and was considering whether to remove them.

One bolt on Dreamcatcher above the Pendulum break is on Flycatcher as is that routes belay. Flycatcher hardly a trade route but does not deserve retroing having had probably less than 5 true onsight ascents and if I recall from the sands of time the second was by NF and onsight!

2 bolts in start of Reloaded are in Matrixs starting groove. Again no trade route but a good bold route in its day. Not sure if I Hate you bolts are interfering with the end of Matrix travers either.

The first pitch of Aquiline must surely have bolts in now due to new route down that end of crag.

Not living in the UK anymore what is the actual position on retro bolts in the Peak nowadays?

Sure there maybe the odd bolt around the start of Matrix but looking at the new topo on the forthcoming BMC guide there does seem to be a reasonable separation between all the lines mentioned.

You could go out of your way and use side runners off the bolts on the first section of Fly Catcher (along with Andy's old bolts on Virgin) but the top is not the same bit of rock that you think it is.
The new 6a+ pitch on the far right is noway part of the 4b 1st pitch of Aquiline. That is still buried under dense ivy.

I know people rejoice in slagging Gary off but 3 or 4 of his routes on Garage are actually quite good even though the rest are just numbers on his tally.
If fact some of them were already Gary's own trad routes that got overgrown and unrecorded since the last definitive guide.

[Bonjoy]

My point of view is that things like the Millstone bolt, and the retro-bolting of White Gold are in part a symptom of a collective inability to deal pragmatically with the issues at hand. In the vacuum created by unresolved polarised debates people take it upon themselves to act as they see fit. As often as not this produces outcomes clearly at odds with the majority view. I’ve argued the point more than once at BMC meetings that if the room can’t agree to any proactive measures then they shouldn’t be overly surprised if some lonewolf goes and does something outrageous, which at best will need undoing and at worst might ruin access.
At the time when I was actively re-bolting sport routes and attending BMC meetings I attempted to test the local consent process to see if it was capable of making a reasonable decision. The answer got was basically that it couldn’t. I got neither a clear yay or nay to what I thought was as strong a case for retro bolting a route as you are likely to get. The route was on a crag which was predominantly trad but with a lot of old fixed gear too and the odd proper sport route. The route relied totally on old pegs, all of which I’d established were either highly questionable or no longer present/intact but still blocking up the placement. I’d checked for alternative placements and found nothing useful. Whilst checking the route I’d also cleaned it of loose rock and in the process removed a fair proportion of its holds. It was essentially a pseudo sport route of about 7a+ which had deteriorated into a very serious unquantifiably dangerous route of at least 7b+. What made it a special case was that it had been a three star route and cleared of its loose rock it looked like it would deserve it again. To my mind the route was good enough and was sport like enough from inception to justify retro-bolting, especially given that the climbing had got substantially harder and that literal like for like peg re-placement was not possible (I did try to replace the pegs but it was impossible). It struck me that if the meeting couldn’t give the green light (or even give a clear no) to the retro-ing of this route, then it was fair to assume that whatever else it may profess it was in reality incapable of ever agreeing to a retro bolt. Such an absolutist position I think is neither sustainable or the best way to protect trad ethics.
Call me pro-bolt if you like, though I don’t think reducing the matter to a false dichotomy really helps anyone. I don’t think there are many instances where there’s a case to retrobolt, certainly not the sort of wholesale job that Shark seems to be hinting at, but I do think it would be good if the green light was given where a case was strong, firstly because a few good routes would be revived but mostly because it would take away the primary excuse from the lonewolf.

[Johnny Brown]

I'm guessing this was one of the E6s near The Alien on Central buttress? I don't recall any success in keeping the debate focused on one route. Not helped by Seb's bolts effectively retro bolting St Paul, the classic E3. In an ideal world your bolts would have been approved and Seb's might not, but it's hard to argue that it wouldn't encourage inappropriate bolt spread when it's already in progress...

Perhaps a better approach would be that folk like yourself and Kris would get approved by the area committee as responsible persons, and be given carte Blanche to do as you like, acknowledging that you'd be better informed than the rest of the meeting (bar the chair as a rule!). But then you guys are never the problem so it's a bit pointless... Did you bolt it or what?

[mrjonathanr]

A sort of designated competent person status? Maybe attainable after 37 consecutive BMC area meets / or 3 hours debate with Ken Wilson / 14 gallons of tea drunk at the crag in a single winter bouldering season?

It seems to me the only justification for new bolts on historically trad crags is as like for like replacement eg peg > bolt on In Bulk = good, Pauliac = bad (not that Seb will thank me for that view and I didn't raise that with him when he did it). My reasoning is that eventually there'll be drift till the trad gear is the anomaly and eventually dispensed with altogether, for all that the new bolted routes may be great.

[Johnny Brown]

If trad climbers aren't cleaning certain buttresses and climbing them (and in many cases haven't done so for decades) their moral authority with respect to what happens with those buttresses is diminished.

As with most bolting discussions, you've got to be careful about context and precedent here. In the context of Cheedale, I'm not in agreement but I'm not outraged. But there are plenty of crags (or routes) where it would be outrageous.

E.g. Ninth life. It would get loads more ascents if you bolted it. Not because bolting it would make it better, but because bolting it makes it more accessible. Suddenly many more folk are able to climb it. I think you've got to be careful defining that as 'popularity' and thereby claiming a mandate.

Take the same principle elsewhere and of course lots of trad routes that are special because of the massive challenge they represent. You could easily turn the Longhope route (only 4 ascents in forty years) into Scotland's answer to Squamish's Grand wall, a popular trad-lite big-wall 'adventure'. And, if there's a God, you'd go to hell.

[Johnny Brown]

What about Ravens Tor? ... Just because the resulting routes are high in the grade scale is not at all a justification for doing this there and not at other easier crags.

Funnily enough that was one of the main justifications at the time. The old wedge again.

My long-term worry of the wedge is not the creeping spread on poor crags, it's that we'll end up with a majority who don't understand the worth of climbing without bolts.

[kelvin]

it's that we'll end up with a majority who don't understand the worth of climbing without bolts.

I honestly think that's already happened with the upsurge in climbing walls, certainly in Northampton, miles from rock and a fairly new wall.

[nai]

That's the Climbing Wall Generation that the 80s/90s mags warned would be unleashed to wreak havoc on our crags.

Interesting looking at Rockfax (I know it's non-definitive and catering for a certain type), a search shows they list over 800 grade 6 problems in the Peak (and that was before Stoney West or Garage Buttress) yet only 575 in the more-or-less equivalent E1-E4 range. Quite sad that sport has become so dominant in such a relatively short time.  And that folk will climb any piece of choss just because it's bolted.

Has there ever been much of a trad lime scene though?  Even 25 years ago in Matlock, Dovedale, Beeston it was rare to see anyone else around.  The only easy sport option then would have been Horseshoe, was everyone already forming an orderly queue?

[slackline]

it's that we'll end up with a majority who don't understand the worth of climbing without bolts.

I honestly think that's already happened with the upsurge in climbing walls, certainly in Northampton, miles from rock and a fairly new wall.

Theres a significant portion of people who would consider themselves "climbers" who don't understand the worth of climbing with a rope.

I'm not being critical of that choice, but quite simply climbing is different things to different people, and my view of what constitutes climbing is no more superior than anyone else's.

[Bonjoy]

I'm guessing this was one of the E6s near The Alien on Central buttress? I don't recall any success in keeping the debate focused on one route. Not helped by Seb's bolts effectively retro bolting St Paul, the classic E3. In an ideal world your bolts would have been approved and Seb's might not, but it's hard to argue that it wouldn't encourage inappropriate bolt spread when it's already in progress...

Perhaps a better approach would be that folk like yourself and Kris would get approved by the area committee as responsible persons, and be given carte Blanche to do as you like, acknowledging that you'd be better informed than the rest of the meeting (bar the chair as a rule!). But then you guys are never the problem so it's a bit pointless... Did you bolt it or what?

It was the big E5 right of Behemoth. Yes the specific request was somewhat lost in the overall discussion. This was part of my frustration, people ask you to get things approved at meetings and then when you raise them you don’t get an answer because the question gets lost in the wider debate it creates.
I didn’t bolt it. In part because it was one of the chair’s routes and he didn’t seem swayed. Though I think he would be if he ever abed the line.

[Johnny Brown]

Last time I went there were bolts all over that bit, if it was one new sport route it takes a very wandering line.

Has there ever been much of a trad lime scene though?  Even 25 years ago in Matlock, Dovedale, Beeston it was rare to see anyone else around.

Interesting. I don't do as much as I'd like, probably 4 or 5 days each summer. The only time I remember being at a crag without other teams present was at Central buttress. I think the decline in popularity is much overplayed, partly due to the fact if you are at Chee tor the Cornice is often rammed, and partly because folk seem to have forgotten that crags like Chee tor don't clean themselves every spring.

[Bonjoy]

Seb did put up a bolted 7c just left of Behemoth and replaced pegs with bolts on the next line left again. The route in question is right of Behemoth.

[Offwidth]

I generally don't 'cause a) I'm shit and don't want to scare or injure myself as most of the routes are too hard for me;

There's plenty of opportunity to scare and/ or injure yourself on overgrown low-grade Peak Lime trad routes too.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=245130

Indeed: try this or severe just left. It was a year or so back when I led it 45m of climbing where no hold was solid and where I found no reliable gear (the tree reached with relief and which was dead but solid 15 years before had to turned to papier mache). Never have I been so scared on 3c terrain nor grasped brambles so lovingly when I reached the top. Low grade peak limestone away from the cute dolomitic craglets is either rare as hens teeth (and usually polished to death) or much more likely a potential sandbag death trap.

[Johnny Brown]

Seb did put up a bolted 7c just left of Behemoth and replaced pegs with bolts on the next line left again. The route in question is right of Behemoth.

Pretty sure there were newish bolts right of Behemoth too.

It struck me that if the meeting couldn’t give the green light (or even give a clear no) to the retro-ing of this route, then it was fair to assume that whatever else it may profess it was in reality incapable of ever agreeing to a retro bolt

I think a fairer summary would be that the first ascensionist was in the room, wasn't keen, and everyone else deferred to him. After all, only he and you had been on the thing, and the premise is/was that the FA's opinion should be respected.

[Bonjoy]

Yes quite right, it was a flawed choice of testcase in that respect. I was however oversimplifying the matter in the previous post. At the same time as asking about said route I also proposed a crag wide assessment of the state of pegs/bolts on all the routes, but though my recollection isn't totally clear I don't think this got any real support either. I could have gone and done this myself anyway but I'd come to the meeting with some hope of support for the task. It was a while back now and I may have a skewed memory of it, maybe the idea would be better supported these days.

[Johnny Brown]

I also proposed a crag wide assessment of the state of pegs/bolts on all the routes

No, I think that was supported but 'twas a bit vague who would do it and how.

For myself I went twice and did a few routes - concluding that retrobolting had already started affecting routes like St. Paul, but that some of the harder routes like Alien were still fine. I've got a vague feeling that someone had suggested retroing Alien and having done it was strongly against. I'd not oppose the retroing of some other routes if indeed reliant on pegs and done sensitively, but the Alien experience made me a bit wary - I'd be inclined to take a couple out before I put any in..

There was a lot of total choss at either end which I would prefer to be left than turned into shit sport routes. Access here remains pretty sensitive too.

[danm]

Worth noting that the NW area have successfully voted at their last meeting, on the kind of specific proposals Jon mentioned getting no traction with in the Peak. So, it can be done - I think you just need to get things framed and set up for a vote rather than a long debate. They voted no to retrobolting, and yes for lower off's and selective replacement of existing pegs with bolt runners, for Lester Mill Quarry, and yes to lower off's for the coal measure face at Anglezarke.

[Bonjoy]

I also proposed a crag wide assessment of the state of pegs/bolts on all the routes

No, I think that was supported but 'twas a bit vague who would do it and how.

For myself I went twice and did a few routes - concluding that retrobolting had already started affecting routes like St. Paul, but that some of the harder routes like Alien were still fine. I've got a vague feeling that someone had suggested retroing Alien and having done it was strongly against. I'd not oppose the retroing of some other routes if indeed reliant on pegs and done sensitively, but the Alien experience made me a bit wary - I'd be inclined to take a couple out before I put any in..

There was a lot of total choss at either end which I would prefer to be left than turned into shit sport routes. Access here remains pretty sensitive too.

I had a thought through and specific proposal which got lost and diluted in the debate. Perhaps I lacked a loud enough voice and sharp enough elbows but the point remains I left feeling that I could have acheived more by just getting on with doing something rather than trying to seek prior approval.
With all respect St Paul and Alien are not representative of the crag as they are just about the most popular routes for the simple reason that they are the least representative of the crags problems. I agree that they could both probably have done with gear removing rather than replacing, but assuming this can be extrapolated much onto the rest of the crag is like drawing conclusions about ground erosion at Stanage after doing a couple of problems on Count's Buttress.

[Johnny Brown]

Fair enough. As I said, only you and Neil really understood the details, hence it was never going to make an simple vote. I'm just keen to point out that the process itself is not fatally flawed as some pro-bolters would like to suggest. We've had the Millstone lower-off debate twice, with a well-informed crowd who voted overwhelmingly against. Which apparently makes us 'backward'.

[slackline]

We've had the Millstone lower-off debate twice, with a well-informed crowd who voted overwhelmingly against. Which apparently makes us 'backward'.

Doesn't seem backwards to me, it seems eminently sensible in that its considering each rock type and venue therein in its own right.

This seems to be (at least part of) what Bonjoy is getting at.

[shark]

We've had the Millstone lower-off debate twice, with a well-informed crowd who voted overwhelmingly against. Which apparently makes us 'backward'.

Who are you quoting ?

[Bonjoy]

No I dont want to give the impression that the process is broken. As Dan points out there are examples of where it has worked fine. The reason for my post was to make the point that if the BMC area meetings are to work as arbitrators it is worth everyone involved making an effort to say yes to the most reasonable proposals. That way they prove their efficacy and validity, which in turn helps to protect the crags from random actions. It's worth remembering because committees are often by nature poor at making decisions which veer from pure preservation of the status quo and some effort is required to overcome this.

[SamT]

Nice one Chris - that's good news.  I also like the idea of just replacing the situ gear, as hanging on for grim death fiddling in wires was always part of the experience on these routes as well.

just saying.

[Ru]

I find it interesting that the climbing wall generation that was tipped to spearhead the retobolting, convenience climbing revolution actually seem to do virtually no bolting at all, presumably because unless its got bolts in already, they don't know how to rig the routes.

[SA Chris]

Maybe they are too used to the convenience of having it all handed to them? Bolts, lower-offs, graded, cleaned?