[tomtom]

Training technique is so difficult because its so bespoke.

Different, height, weight, ape, morph, experience climbers all climb in different ways - and so use different techniques. Similarly different problems will require different techniques - again different for different people!
(I'm in danger of going Rumsfeld with the word different here!)

You can get an idea of how you can improve your technique from generic guidelines (body position, centre of gravity, ways to hold things etc..) but these will often be subtly different for folks...

[Sloper]

It seems to me we all pay lip service to technique but that no one really has a clue how to train it. Ok beginners are told to focus on technique but other a few drills there isn't much information about technique training. Do elite climbers have 'perfect' technique?

One of the things I recall from climbing in Font is watchign the chap with the v shaped scar on his chin repeating the same problem time after time, making it as easy and efficient as possible.

This is one way to improve technique (and I suppose strength etc at the same time)

Most elite climbers are to thin to have perfect technique, it's only us lard buckets that have mastered the dark arts.

[tomtom]

Pah - its us stick insects that have to use technique to get through those brawn moves you burlier types excel at!



('nearly' mentioned long levers....)

[Rocksteady]

Technique for me encompasses the skill of identifying what movement would be the most efficient (for you) to move through any given configuration of holds, as well as executing that movement.

The trouble is, the configurations of holds in climbing is pretty much infinite, as are the physical characteristics of each climber.

I remember reading judo training books when I was younger about movement 'schema' and open and closed skills. You can train the efficiency of a movement by repeating it over and over eg. a golf swing, or in judo a throw or armlock. You'd usually want to have a coach for this aspect so that they could feed back on your technique and make sure you're not ingraining bad or inefficient technique.
Then you'd do sparring - learning how to apply that movement schema against an opponent being an 'open' skill that requires practice in an uncontrolled way to develop judgement of how to apply technique against an opponent in a random way - judging their movements etc relative to you.

I think climbing has analogies with combat sports in this way as the movement schemas can be trained by repetition (i.e. repeatedly doing the same problem, practising egyptians or heelhooks or whatever in your warm up) but then there's an 'open' skill in assessing how to apply that movement on a new configuration of holds. That's the part where 'just climbing loads' is going to improve your technique, and there probably aren't any shortcuts.

However, you don't see many people drilling movements at the climbing wall - that's part of improving technique and isn't embedded in climbing training culture at all.

[Stubbs]

However, you don't see many people drilling movements at the climbing wall - that's part of improving technique and isn't embedded in climbing training culture at all.

For me this would come in the sessions of working hard problems in the wall or on the board. If you do them in a session or two, you haven't got any stronger, but you have learnt the movement required for that particular climb and hopefully added it to your move database for future reference.

[mrjonathanr]

Strength training get you the girls on the beach.

But Yoga is all year-round 

[Sloper]

Pah - its us stick insects that have to use technique to get through those brawn moves you burlier types excel at!



('nearly' mentioned long levers....)

Wait till you're married, the lbs will pile on.

[slackline]

Wait till you're married, the lbs will pile on.

One of those two has already happened.

[Dexter]

I think for me it helps to work problems people who climb at a similar level then to talk about it whilst we try.
For example different body positions and how they feel. Also I think one thing people don't do enough in bouldering is just give a wacky idea a try, often I'll wonder if some crazy beta would work. Most times it doesn't but it gives you an idea of what other body positions feel like and what different muscles are being used. Things like the leg kick in cypher (at 40s plus a few more), trying these  sorts of things on steeper walls too, just to see how they feel

[jwi]

Always strive to move as efficiently as possible, on the warm-ups as well as on your project. Think about the most efficient way to do every single move on every single climb you do. Closely watch every climber that climb the same route you have done/tried. Judge if they do the route/boulder problem better or worse than you, if you think they did it much better: try their solution to find out how it works for you.

If you do all of the above you will move as well as anyone and will astound people with  your "strenght" and "endurance".

[tomtom]

Wait till you're married, the lbs will pile on.

One of those two has already happened.

Yup - just got down to pre-wedding weight a couple of weeks ago... MrsTT on the other hand......

[tomtom]

However, you don't see many people drilling movements at the climbing wall - that's part of improving technique and isn't embedded in climbing training culture at all.

For me this would come in the sessions of working hard problems in the wall or on the board. If you do them in a session or two, you haven't got any stronger, but you have learnt the movement required for that particular climb and hopefully added it to your move database for future reference.

Interesting. For me this is doing a circuit at a crag I know - ie Almscliff - where I'll have 8-10 problems I always do, and was the same today at Harmers.. After while you do hone your technique via repetition yes, though it could also be that I've got stronger over time! So this is part of my climbing culture - and I use it to get a feel for the conditions and to see how well I'm climbing - how the flow feels.

I guess the issue with repeating exercises at a wall - repeating the same circuit week in week out on every visit - is those darned wall owners re-set the problems every few weeks/months/years (depending on the venue of course!).

When I (rarely) go to the wall - in my warm up (doing all the v1's then v2's then v3's etc..) I try and do these in the best style possible. By that I mean I think about my body position, try to get open legged and hips close to the wall, be smooth and effective - and downclimb them all too...

[abarro81]

Doing the same problems 3 times per week every week for months on end is not technique training, it's ego massaging or warming up. Don't kid yourself.

[tomtom]

Doing the same problems 3 times per week every week for months on end is not technique training, it's ego massaging or warming up. Don't kid yourself.

I also enjoy doing the problems!! (but I dont do them 3 times a week every week for months!)

[jwi]

On a related note: I know a guy who spent 6 months climbing on two routes. One of them the warmup (always the same route) and the other his project. After trying his project 3 times, 3 days a week, for half a year he managed to send the route, his first 8a  (quite impressive for a 50 year old who started climbing when 45 and runs his own company as well). The week after he went to Kalymnos and promptly failed to red-point 7as.

Nothing but closed-loop skills.

[SA Chris]

building very tall wobbly skyscrapers, not pyramids

[Doylo]

On a related note: I know a guy who spent 6 months climbing on two routes. One of them the warmup (always the same route) and the other his project. After trying his project 3 times, 3 days a week, for half a year he managed to send the route, his first 8a  (quite impressive for a 50 year old who started climbing when 45 and runs his own company as well). The week after he went to Kalymnos and promptly failed to red-point 7as.

Nothing but closed-loop skills.

He'll soon forget about Kalymnos but the hard seige and tick will stay with him forever .

[a dense loner]

Exactly. It's different for everyone, people mainly have to choose between loads of a certain grade or very few of another grade.
JWI's mate chose to train pretty much exclusively for what he wanted and did it. That's what training is to me, helping you to try and achieve a goal. The rest is just fucking about.

[kelvin]

That's what training is to me, helping you to try and achieve a goal. The rest is just fucking about.

Nail on head. Thing is... most of us like to fuck about too and whilst there's nothing wrong with that - training should lead to goal achievement. Nothing else matters during a training session.

[thekettle]

The internal feedback about body position, breathing, accuracy, momentum, speed of movement etc requires a higher level of awareness than most folk start the sport with, and it takes considerable deliberate practice to develop and exploit it.
At least that how it appears to me.. 

What about more experience climbers John do you think that it's possible for elite level climbers to improve their technique?

Sometimes, yes. Reasonably straightforward to spot gaps in movement skills in folk climbing f8c or less. Many notable 8C boulderers (usually the strongest ones) could move better, look to the scrawniest/least genetically gifted elites for the best movement. Like others' have said it's mega-complex and very personal so hard to dish out (or print) 'one-size-fits-all' advice.

Also quite easy to fall into the 'that's my style'  trap - confusing cognitive ease with physical ease and taking the former to be an indication of movement effiency.

[Baron]

Just ask The Dawes:
http://www.johnnydawes.com/learn-stuff/workshops/

[SEDur]

I would have thought, the best way to train technique is to climb loads of stuff and analyse it empirically.

Use the feedback your body gives you like 'fuck, im off balance and having to work hard when I am front on here', to make the decision about your knee position and ankle direction etc.

Climb easy stuff well, analyse what works and what doesn't, improve and repeat.
Climb harder stuff well, analyse, improve and repeat.
Listen to what your body tells you consciously, as your sub-concious is always doing it.

By the same token I fully believe that if you climb with shit style and bad technique, your sub-concious and by extension central nervous system will become accustomed to that, much like people not warming up properly and similar. Your body gets used to climbing is a non-optimal state, and you don't fulfil the physical potential at that point.

I don't think you will ever manage to science it...