[Lund]

'Burl up' = code for stick toes and fingers to the rock like shit to a blanket. You need a strong chain from toes to shoulder to do that.

Deadlift twice your body weight is not that impressive?  Perhaps get getter at deadliting to strengthen the posterior chain?

http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/DeadliftStandards.html

Plus get back on that front lever... maybe do some of the dragon's door progressions...

As to the training programme, all I've got to wade in with opinion wise is that if it's not working, change it.

[Paul B]

I found close grip seated preacher curls with a bar until your biceps are close to exploding quite useful for making holding undercuts feel a bit easier...

[abarro81]

In the nicest way possible, to the next person who suggests deadlifting in this thread: I'm going to hunt you down and punch you in the face. Tinkering around the edges (like doing deadlifting or switching weighted hangs to f3) is the stuff that it always seems to me that Simon loves doing. This applies to many others, including myself - getting drawn in by adjusting the minutae when there are bigger fish to fry. E.g. in this case, spending time outdoors doing a whole bunch of burly undercutty problems, bringing variety into the training, doing more relevant core exercises (that wont get you stacked legs) etc.

Fucking deadlifting.

[Lund]

In the nicest way possible, to the next person who suggests deadlifting in this thread: I'm going to hunt you down and punch you in the face. Tinkering around the edges (like doing deadlifting or switching weighted hangs to f3) is the stuff that it always seems to me that Simon loves doing. This applies to many others, including myself - getting drawn in by adjusting the minutae when there are bigger fish to fry. E.g. in this case, spending time outdoors doing a whole bunch of burly undercutty problems, bringing variety into the training, doing more relevant core exercises (that wont get you stacked legs) etc.

Fucking deadlifting.

If you appear to try to punch me, then after I've stabbed you in the face repeatedly I'll set to on your family, alright?

I kind of agree with you, but not wholesale.  The only thing worse than tinkering around the ages is assuming that all training advice, including telling people to not deadlift, is relevant to all.  It never will be.  For some, increased lower back strength will be very relevant...

In any case, it seems to me the answer to Habrich's question is highly relevant as to the future of the beastmaker.

Plus I have one observation.  I have no direct experience on the sharp end of a rope, don't like too many moves without a sit down, but I do train with two that do and would probably do OK on the oak.  Neither does any fingerboarding.  The thin pasty white duke just goes on a diet and does laps for two hours on 7C problems etc..  The other doesn't diet and does 8a circuits as part of his warm-up.

[Doylo]

I think trying to climb a short (12 metre) British lime 8b when you've only bouldered 7a+ is going to be hard work even if it is a fairly sustained style. You need to be able to overpower these routes, fitness is important but for me strength more so on this length of route. So strength gains are the way forward in this situation. I'm no training expert though so I'll leave everyone else to argue the best way to achieve this (more proper bouldering on short problems perhaps, I'd get myself on peak lime).

[Fiend]

Sounds like that pansy Barrows DOESN'T EVEN LIFT 

[Sasquatch]

I'm totally speaking out of my ass on this, but is there a reason you were climbing so much slower in the video you failed on the crux?

On the one where you stick "the move", it took you 45 seconds from leaving the ground to stick the move.  On the failure it took 55 seconds.  That's 22% longer to get to the same place.  And it's not like you were resting or shaking out on any of the moves.  If it's near your limit, that's night and day.  On the failure, it looked as though you didn't trust any of the foot placements, or your placements were bad and took correcting.  If this is the case, then no amount of FBing is going to help. 

Can you consistently do the crux move in isolation?  If so, then everything I know about climbing tells me the issue on this particular route is not STR. 

You say earlier that

Throughout my career I have been told Im weak as in I cant do hard moves relative to my grade. I believe my technique (on limestone is good) but maybe not. Quite frankly something is making me crap at bouldering which I believe is mainly down to poor finger strength. If not what?

Throughout my climbing career, I've been told that I'm "strong" and I "power through" moves.  For many years I just believed them, but when I finally did any strength testing with any of these people, they were stronger hands down in almost any measurable way, but I can without fail outclimb any of them.  Just because others are telling you you're weak does not make it so.  You're looking in the right direction by saying "something" is making me crap at bouldering.  The issue is that you have been preconditioned to think you're weak because you've been told that, so the natural direction is that. 

One last question.  Have you spent a season or more bouldering with the aim being just to boulder?  and not LONG enduro bouldering?  When I watch the videos, what struck me was that on most of the moves, you catch and then readjust your hands.  I wonder if your precision or contact strength could be a weakness? No idea without climbing with you firsthand a bunch more, but well worth a rethink.

Cheers and good luck! 

[petejh]

Fucking hell Shark you're going to be the most well-conditioned athlete in Yorkshire after this thread. No pressure.

[Doylo]

You should have picked Predator you dick 

[petejh]

Fatboy again

[Adam Lincoln]

Where is your high point as if you are falling off pumped/powered out on the move in the second vid, you are going to struggle with the rock up, then the traverse left, which is burly!

Just saying....

[Doylo]

Also isn't the undercut move by the 3rd bolt? I.e. Blatantly a power rather than fitness issue. Even I don't get pumped at the 3rd bolt!

[Sasquatch]

Power to a route climber, endurance to a boulderer like me.

But I think everyone knows it's a "power" issue, but is it the raw strength or something else. 

[ianv]

Doing some of the other routes off the catwalk would be a good way to get oak fit.
Have you done raindogs, the maximum, zoolook?

[shark]

Are you sure you guys are talking about the same hold? Simon, I was under the impression you did most of your weighted hangs on the ginormous #5's? And found the #10's hard to hold even unweighted?

 

Yes - it is the ginormous #5's. I call them the slots and got confused with your numbering system.

I can hold the #10's with bodyweight for 10secs+ as a drag and for about 4secs as a front3 drag. I struggle to crimp them.

So does that mean we can return to the premise that I have abnormally weak fingers and it makes sense to focus on a method I have found to improve them....

[shark]

Doing some of the other routes off the catwalk would be a good way to get oak fit.
Have you done raindogs, the maximum, zoolook?

Yes, no, yes. Im not really psyched for the Maximum and would most likey be wet if the Oak was wet. Its a long and expensive drive to Malham and I would rather go to the Tor if I know the Oak is wet.     

[shark]

You should have picked Predator you dick 

Saving the technical stamina plods for when I'm old   

[bendavison]

I can hold the #10's with bodyweight for 10secs+ as a drag and for about 4secs as a front3 drag. I struggle to crimp them.

So does that mean we can return to the premise that I have abnormally weak fingers and it makes sense to focus on a method I have found to improve them....
[/quote]

Out of interest, has your ability to hold the #10's improved along with your MAW hangs on #5?

[shark]

I'm totally speaking out of my ass on this, but is there a reason you were climbing so much slower in the video you failed on the crux?

On the one where you stick "the move", it took you 45 seconds from leaving the ground to stick the move.  On the failure it took 55 seconds.  That's 22% longer to get to the same place.  And it's not like you were resting or shaking out on any of the moves.  If it's near your limit, that's night and day.  On the failure, it looked as though you didn't trust any of the foot to the to the move a lot quicker placements, or your placements were bad and took correcting.  If this is the case, then no amount of FBing is going to help.

Good points but Malham footholds are generally bad and some of the Oak ones are truly awful even if the handholds are generally good. I have watched some climbers get to "the move" a lot quicker but unfortunately it is by doing a sequence that is too hard for me. Those vids are from a while ago and maybe I wasn't so slick or was tired in the failure one.   

Can you consistently do the crux move in isolation?  If so, then everything I know about climbing tells me the issue on this particular route is not STR.

Yes I can. I think I had it 5 or 6 times in a row once to see if I could 

You say earlier that
Throughout my climbing career, I've been told that I'm "strong" and I "power through" moves.  For many years I just believed them, but when I finally did any strength testing with any of these people, they were stronger hands down in almost any measurable way, but I can without fail outclimb any of them.  Just because others are telling you you're weak does not make it so.  You're looking in the right direction by saying "something" is making me crap at bouldering.  The issue is that you have been preconditioned to think you're weak because you've been told that, so the natural direction is that.

Back in 1987 I went to Buoux where I met and climbed with Richie Patterson and Graeme Alderson who were climbing about 6c+ then and I managed to onsight Dresden a hard 7a+. We shared a lift on the way back abd stopped at Cuvier and they waltzed up the problems and left me for dust despite my best efforts. There have been many instances of this sort of thing ever since.

One last question.  Have you spent a season or more bouldering with the aim being just to boulder?  and not LONG enduro bouldering?  When I watch the videos, what struck me was that on most of the moves, you catch and then readjust your hands.  I wonder if your precision or contact strength could be a weakness? No idea without climbing with you firsthand a bunch more, but well worth a rethink.

You could be right. I mainly route climb and climb like a route climber. I find I get a little bit back in my fingers when I readjust but also my contact strength isnt great. I did focus on bloc problems over the summer and repeatedly tried a couple of 7a+ problems at the Tor (start of Perverse Reverse and Rattle and Hump) and Kudos at Rubicon. I got a bit better on them but was still well short of doing them. Typically I have got stronger by working routes rather than bouldering I think. I certainly enjoy it more and maybe try harder when dogging than bouldering as a consequence. 

[shark]

Out of interest, has your ability to hold the #10's improved along with your MAW hangs on #5?

Not sure but I would assume so as I am feeling much stronger on small crimps outdoors now than 9 months ago - "much stronger" being relative to me I should add before Dylan pipes in

[Sasquatch]

maybe.

You've been doing the max hangs how long? And you've seen gains of how much over what periods? And what size is the undercut on the Oak?

[shark]

maybe.

You've been doing the max hangs how long? And you've seen gains of how much over what periods? And what size is the undercut on the Oak?

I started doing the front 3 hangs on the #5's at the end of May starting at 25kg and quickly got to 27.5kg. Ive had a few breaks and now I am close to doing 3 x10secs with 35kg.

[Sasquatch]

Didn't you start them (not front 3 but in general) in summer of 2012? 

And what size is the undercut?  Makes a big difference as adding 35kgs, but training on a hold that engages the 2nd joint is very different than pulling on a 1st pad only hold. 

Back in 1987 I went to Buoux where I met and climbed with Richie Patterson and Graeme Alderson who were climbing about 6c+ then and I managed to onsight Dresden a hard 7a+. We shared a lift on the way back abd stopped at Cuvier and they waltzed up the problems and left me for dust despite my best efforts. There have been many instances of this sort of thing ever since.

I find that quite interesting as I've always understood Font to be exceptionally technical rather than powerful.....
 

You could be right. I mainly route climb and climb like a route climber.

One thing I've noticed is that in the 7a-7c range and the 6C-7B range you often see very distinctive movement styles between route climbers and boulderers.  It seems to be as you move beyond this, there is far less difference.  They are simply "climbers".  There are exceptions, but generally I've found there to be far less difference at the higher end. 

[ianv]

Do you have a woodie? if so build a series of sections like on the Oak with pumpy down climbing between each section. Get the moves wired and repeat until piss. If not then try and find similar problems at the wall. Do some weights to improve strength in the muscles utilised on the route (shoulders/biceps etc) Get a fingerboard with 4 sets of edges (1 joint or so) going up the middle and a further 4 on the outside a bit like a mini campus board. Work circuits up and down till failure. When you can do a couple of circuits before failure, stick on a weight belt and repeat.

If you go outside climb burly problems and pay a few visits to the back of the calf as this is ace for the stuff you find on The Oak.

Beginning of the year, try the route a bit and then finish the day re climbing raindogs multiple times. Do this every time you go.

The deadhang thing is just farting around, it got used a lot bitd and never really helped anyone to climb hard. Its especially wasteful in this scenario as you know exactly the moves and physical requirements to do the route and could tailor your training rather than take a blunderbuss approach.

[petejh]

I started doing the front 3 hangs on the #5's at the end of May starting at 25kg and quickly got to 27.5kg. Ive had a few breaks and now I am close to doing 3 x10secs with 35kg.

So you've built yourself a decent base of finger strength. If you can hold the #10s for 10 seconds with body weight, why not try doing your weighted hangs for 5-8 seconds on the #10s, using whatever small amount of extra weight it takes so that you can only hang for 6 secs (4-8secs = hypertrophy, 10 secs is getting away from strength) and slowly increasing that weight as your fingers make strength gains. This would be: a finger strength workout, specific to small holds, which still follows Eva Lopez's weighted-hangs idea (which looks to me to be aimed more towards people wanting to climb typical euro sport routes rather than British lime 8bs).

I honestly climb font7B off the couch after 12 months of no bouldering - natural finger strength being my relative strength and my natural PE/endurance being totally shit. But I wouldn't expect to be able to do a 12 metre British 8b without working the movement patterns, motor control, body tension, contact strength and all the other subtle factors gained by bouldering on font7Bs as a significant part of the training. You are after all only climbing 12m - that first move you fail on in the vid is barely in 'route' territory, you're practically in boulder problem territory still.

Also - just watched your vids and you do look a bit saggy in the middle but can't find any other vids of Oak to compare with. You could try getting on the 30 and 45 boards and doing snatchy single moves and short (3 moves) sequences while imagining that your big toes have 6-inch nails driven through them holding them to shit footholds; and that your big toe is linked to your finger-tip by a continuous line of tension through the ankle, calf, hamstring, glutes, obliques, lats, shoulder and up the arm throughout the whole move. Compare yourself to others trying the same thing and who can/have climbed The Oak.


All of the above is not meant to be arsey in any way, just stating the obvious.

edit - what ianv said.