[Lund]

Back in 1987 I went to Buoux where I met and climbed with Richie Patterson and Graeme Alderson who were climbing about 6c+ then and I managed to onsight Dresden a hard 7a+. We shared a lift on the way back abd stopped at Cuvier and they waltzed up the problems and left me for dust despite my best efforts. There have been many instances of this sort of thing ever since.

I find that quite interesting as I've always understood Font to be exceptionally technical rather than powerful.....

Yes you're right.  Except at the higher grades where it's both.  In particular, if you've not been before or for a while you tend to get a spanking.  So it could be relevant that shark got whipped, but more likely that it was not.

Without wanting to be a dick (this thread has far too many phrases like this, don't we usually just get stuck in without niceties, bunch of benders, hahaha, don't punter unless you've read the DT house thread), I think an 8b climber needs to have better finger strength.  I also submit that fannying around in big holes with weight on is not really going to cut it.  Unless you're climbing slots with a rucksack on.

I think... an overhanging board, with crap feet, and hours and hours and hours of bouldering on it, as a sustained program of hench bouldering over the winter, is required.  Towards the end switch to circuits to remember how it feels to be spent.  Sack off the fingerboard you must be bored silly of it anyway.  Then report back in 3 months and let us know how it went.

[shark]

Do you have a woodie? if so build a series of sections like on the Oak with pumpy down climbing between each section. Get the moves wired and repeat until piss. If not then try and find similar problems at the wall. Do some weights to improve strength in the muscles utilised on the route (shoulders/biceps etc) Get a fingerboard with 4 sets of edges (1 joint or so) going up the middle and a further 4 on the outside a bit like a mini campus board. Work circuits up and down till failure. When you can do a couple of circuits before failure, stick on a weight belt and repeat.

If you go outside climb burly problems and pay a few visits to the back of the calf as this is ace for the stuff you find on The Oak.

Beginning of the year, try the route a bit and then finish the day re climbing raindogs multiple times. Do this every time you go.

The deadhang thing is just farting around, it got used a lot bitd and never really helped anyone to climb hard. Its especially wasteful in this scenario as you know exactly the moves and physical requirements to do the route and could tailor your training rather than take a blunderbuss approach.

Thanks Ian. These are good points - an old school approach but no less valid now.

Currently I lack a woodie since moving house in oct 12 but when I had one I replicated the moves like you suggested. I have a systems board at work though and was intending sticking some undercuts on it and theres no reason not to stick a few more on to make it more like a normal woodie.  I have also been waiting on a new fingerboard with more edges for a few weeks now (hurry up Probes).

[shark]

Didn't you start them (not front 3 but in general) in summer of 2012? 

And what size is the undercut?  Makes a big difference as adding 35kgs, but training on a hold that engages the 2nd joint is very different than pulling on a 1st pad only hold. 

Yes been doing it for a while.

The undercut is first pad only. Trouble with the beastmaker you ony have the #5 and #10 and I think the #10 isnt so useful as I can only really drag rather than half crimp it. I could put up a campus rung instead though.

[kelvin]

I was told by Alex Fry last year to not bother with the beastmaker for me as the holds were either too big or too small - he set me to work deadhanging on the campus rails. Might be a cheap option to try...

[Sasquatch]

Do you have a woodie? if so build a series of sections like on the Oak with pumpy down climbing between each section. Get the moves wired and repeat until piss. If not then try and find similar problems at the wall. Do some weights to improve strength in the muscles utilised on the route (shoulders/biceps etc) Get a fingerboard with 4 sets of edges (1 joint or so) going up the middle and a further 4 on the outside a bit like a mini campus board. Work circuits up and down till failure. When you can do a couple of circuits before failure, stick on a weight belt and repeat.

If you go outside climb burly problems and pay a few visits to the back of the calf as this is ace for the stuff you find on The Oak.

Beginning of the year, try the route a bit and then finish the day re climbing raindogs multiple times. Do this every time you go.

The deadhang thing is just farting around, it got used a lot bitd and never really helped anyone to climb hard. Its especially wasteful in this scenario as you know exactly the moves and physical requirements to do the route and could tailor your training rather than take a blunderbuss approach.

I don't understand, you say he should be doing weights and fingerboard campusing, but the Deadhang thing is just farting around? I'm sorry but that makes no sense to me.  Not that I disagree with the suggestion, just the deadhanging being farting around. 

Without wanting to be a dick (this thread has far too many phrases like this, don't we usually just get stuck in without niceties, bunch of benders, hahaha, don't punter unless you've read the DT house thread), I think an 8b climber needs to have better finger strength.  I also submit that fannying around in big holes with weight on is not really going to cut it.  Unless you're climbing slots with a rucksack on.

I think... an overhanging board, with crap feet, and hours and hours and hours of bouldering on it, as a sustained program of hench bouldering over the winter, is required.  Towards the end switch to circuits to remember how it feels to be spent.  Sack off the fingerboard you must be bored silly of it anyway.  Then report back in 3 months and let us know how it went.

So he needs strong fingers and the way to get there is to do hours and hours of hard bouldering on an overhanging board with crap feet?

Didn't you start them (not front 3 but in general) in summer of 2012? 

And what size is the undercut?  Makes a big difference as adding 35kgs, but training on a hold that engages the 2nd joint is very different than pulling on a 1st pad only hold. 

Yes been doing it for a while.

The undercut is first pad only. Trouble with the beastmaker you ony have the #5 and #10 and I think the #10 isnt so useful as I can only really drag rather than half crimp it. I could put up a campus rung instead though.

I did the same last year and found it massively helpful as an in between. 

All told, it sounds like your main goal is Oak, but that you'll also be doing loads of other climbing in the meantime and afterwards.  Your fingers seem to be relatively weak for the grade you're climbing and a weakness to be remedied.  The Oak will really come into season late next season so you have loads of time.  As a means of improving your overall climbing for the next 6 months, I'd aim for getting your bouldering grade up to consistent 7B and the occasional 7C.  Not getting stuck into a project bouldering, but building a big base of lower grade bouldering and working up.  Achieving this should help for all of these goals, and if you look at the consistent recommendations from almost all parties, they all boil down to doing a bunch of bouldering/hard climbing   As you get close to the right season, then get more specific.

[ianv]

I don't understand, you say he should be doing weights and fingerboard campusing, but the Deadhang thing is just farting around? I'm sorry but that makes no sense to me.  Not that I disagree with the suggestion, just the deadhanging being farting around.

Because the holds are big and the exercise is static, it does not recreate any climbing action other than hanging on a (big) hold. What I was suggesting works the fingers, while at the same time recruiting back, arm and forearm muscles. I am not talking about using a little board like the beastmaker, but something about 50x70cm with screwed on paired edges. It works pretty well for building endurance as well as finger and back strength and IME is a really good tool for training for the sort of climbing at Malham.

As Lund so eloquently put it:

fannying around in big holes with weight on is not really going to cut it.  Unless you're climbing slots with a rucksack on.

[Lund]

Without wanting to be a dick (this thread has far too many phrases like this, don't we usually just get stuck in without niceties, bunch of benders, hahaha, don't punter unless you've read the DT house thread), I think an 8b climber needs to have better finger strength.  I also submit that fannying around in big holes with weight on is not really going to cut it.  Unless you're climbing slots with a rucksack on.

I think... an overhanging board, with crap feet, and hours and hours and hours of bouldering on it, as a sustained program of hench bouldering over the winter, is required.  Towards the end switch to circuits to remember how it feels to be spent.  Sack off the fingerboard you must be bored silly of it anyway.  Then report back in 3 months and let us know how it went.

So he needs strong fingers and the way to get there is to do hours and hours of hard bouldering on an overhanging board with crap feet?

Yeah.  Because it'll nail his fingers, his core, and get his feet replicating those shit footholds on his project.

Worked for malc, dinnit?

Sometimes I think we make this thing more complicated than it needs to be.

I just think at the heart of it, 8b is hard.  7A is not, not really - so if that's his bouldering grade there's a discrepancy that needs addressing.  A woodie and some time would do that, in my not so humble opinion.

[Stubbs]

Shark I thought benchmarking was part of the Eva Lopez shizzle? You say you feel stronger on small holds outside but I find it interesting you can't half crimp the hold 10's on the BM. Most people I know are stronger on these holds half crimped than open, this sounds like an area where you could make real gains. If you don't want to add a campus rung you could always use pulley/bungee assistance?

I'd been doing a period of weighted dead hangs on the BM but used a wadge of cardboard in each slot to bring them down to one joint.

[shark]

Shark I thought benchmarking was part of the Eva Lopez shizzle? You say you feel stronger on small holds outside but I find it interesting you can't half crimp the hold 10's on the BM. Most people I know are stronger on these holds half crimped than open, this sounds like an area where you could make real gains. If you don't want to add a campus rung you could always use pulley/bungee assistance?

I'd been doing a period of weighted dead hangs on the BM but used a wadge of cardboard in each slot to bring them down to one joint.

I locked onto the large hold / big weight approach was because that seemed to promote the most gains in the study and also crossed over to gains on smaller holds. Lopez advocates more variety. Being a meathead I have got locked into beating previous scores. The wedge of cardboard is a good idea but I do have a campus rung I can screw up so I might as well do that. I'll have a go at half crimping the #10 hold and see how that goes.

[Stubbs]

FWIW I also agree with our Alaskan friend's idea of going out and getting a load of bouldering volume in rather than spending the majority of your time at 2 venues. This is likely to improve your bouldering level by itself, and should at least make sessions more fun!

[shark]

FWIW I also agree with our Alaskan friend's idea of going out and getting a load of bouldering volume in rather than spending the majority of your time at 2 venues. This is likely to improve your bouldering level by itself, and should at least make sessions more fun!

Fun for me is grinding out a project! but I take your points and will force myself to get about more

[Sasquatch]

I don't understand, you say he should be doing weights and fingerboard campusing, but the Deadhang thing is just farting around? I'm sorry but that makes no sense to me.  Not that I disagree with the suggestion, just the deadhanging being farting around.

Because the holds are big and the exercise is static, it does not recreate any climbing action other than hanging on a (big) hold. What I was suggesting works the fingers, while at the same time recruiting back, arm and forearm muscles. I am not talking about using a little board like the beastmaker, but something about 50x70cm with screwed on paired edges. It works pretty well for building endurance as well as finger and back strength and IME is a really good tool for training for the sort of climbing at Malham.

I agree the hold is too big.
I don't agree on it being any more or less helpful than what you're suggesting(more or less a campus board?).  Both have their place and are simply tools.  Having done both max hangs and a variety of campusing, I can assure you my arms, shoulders, and back get a good workout when doing max hangs.   What I don't get with max hangs is the nuerological recruitment needed for "contact" strength or the speed and precisionof movement  that comes with the dynamic movement of campusing.  Why I don't like it is that I believe climbing movement should almost always by generated from the hips and campusing does not allow that, so you are reinforcing the habits of starting from the shoulders instead of hips.  I also don't like it because I get injured doing it.  Like any tool they have their pros and cons.  Knowing those and choosing the right one for your situation is the trick.

I just think at the heart of it, 8b is hard.  7A is not, not really - so if that's his bouldering grade there's a discrepancy that needs addressing. 

I agree. 
As I said before:

Your fingers seem to be relatively weak for the grade you're climbing and a weakness to be remedied.  The Oak will really come into season late next season so you have loads of time.  As a means of improving your overall climbing for the next 6 months, I'd aim for getting your bouldering grade up to consistent 7B and the occasional 7C.  Not getting stuck into a project bouldering, but building a big base of lower grade bouldering and working up.  Achieving this should help for all of these goals, and if you look at the consistent recommendations from almost all parties, they all boil down to doing a bunch of bouldering/hard climbing   As you get close to the right season, then get more specific.

More or less what you said just slightly different wording/viewpoint. 

Good Luck Shark! 

[ghisino]

two more comments having seen the two route videos now.

1)the route looks awfully undercut intensive for my standards.
one twist on the fingerboard work could be to use a supinated position (palms facing you).
btw anyone knows if this can be harmful?

that said if i was projecting it i'd also make sure to be a bit stronger than usual in my biceps and my lower posterior chain (calf-harmstrings-glutes-lower back).
But then i don't usually climb in undercut-intensive venues, so i'm not particularly undercut-strong to start with.


2)it is a pity that the angle of the two vids is different as it makes comparisons more difficult...
Yet in the second (more successful) vid, it looks like your pelvis is slightly closer to the wall and possibly a tad higher relatively to your feet, on all the undercuts moves and especially the one that gives you trouble.
 
Ok i'm just stating the obvious uh?
If i am not (in the sense that i might be right, but you are neither aware of this during your attemps, nor you can "feel" it clearly in a retrospective manner through visualization) then you have an interesting field to explore.

[miso soup]

I just think at the heart of it, 8b is hard.  7A is not, not really - so if that's his bouldering grade there's a discrepancy that needs addressing. 

I agree. 

I disagree, I think 7A is nails, and I can do bodyweight front 3 repeaters on the 10's til the cows come home...

But I do agree with the point being made, how many 8b climbers don't boulder any harder than 7A?  Especially when we're talking about short 8b's?

[lagerstarfish]

I read this thread in attempt to deal with a sleep problem - didn't work

I know nothing about training, but...

seems to me like Le Requin would benefit from getting out to some more bouldering venues and working some unticked problems in the 7A/7A+ range (micro-grinding mini projects) - this is realistic/achievable and the successes will be quite motivating. Don't just tick these problems once, revisit them and learn the problems properly so that you get used to flowing through whole sequences that were difficult to learn - obviously this process will have some strength and power training value as well as the mental thing of moving through tough sequences without stopping or having to think.

having a library of 7A and 7A+ problems that you can just go out to do when you have a spare hour would be pretty good, non? remember that "off" days are reasonably common in bouldering compared to chuffing

obviously, offers of 7B and over should also be considered

I suggest Eastern grit for it's proximity to your house and a good concentration of problems - it will be possible to visit more than one venue on a day when you are repeating ticked problems and having a good day - just think of the training value of that!

you will have the occasional day when the problems you have learned feel easy - from my memory of redpointing, this is what you want to experience

Paypal accepted

[shark]

Thanks guys (even Barrows)

I'll fight against my natural inclination to get locked into things whether its a specific route, problem or  fingerboard routine.

Did a fingerboard session this morning and it is OK for me to the use #10's with bodyweight. I can crimp it for 10secs and drag with the Front3 for 4 secs so will start basing sessions around this hold.

As Lagers reminded me on Sunday there is a wealth of unticked grit 7a-7b's on my doorstep and there's limestone venues like Minus 10 that can be good in winter too so yes it would be daft to only go to eatswood as much as I love it there.

Indoors I put more time into the Wave and get on the 40degree board where usefully ThreeNine has set an introductory  undercut problem (features for feet). Ill also add some small undercuts to the systems board for single moves and use it more for single hard moves and short sequences.

I've neglected the free weights for quite some time and PeteH has reminded me that it would be good to resume this if for no other reason to keep my dicky lower back strong and healthy.

If I still don't tick the Oak next year I'll punter the lot of you.

[shark]

2)it is a pity that the angle of the two vids is different as it makes comparisons more difficult...
Yet in the second (more successful) vid, it looks like your pelvis is slightly closer to the wall and possibly a tad higher relatively to your feet, on all the undercuts moves and especially the one that gives you trouble.

Its something I always aim to do and when Im stronger on it I can pull in a lot closer. Sagging is disasterous. I actually keep the right foot lower for the cross thru now purely so when it goes up it is on the ouside edge as now rather than doing a front on jump I do it siode-on which is a much more stable position to be in when grabbing the large pinch/horn 

[Stubbs]

Did a fingerboard session this morning and it is OK for me to the use #10's with bodyweight. I can crimp it for 10secs and drag with the Front3 for 4 secs so will start basing sessions around this hold.

I assume this is what you meant, it sounds like this in itself may show some improvement in your finger strength?  A good short term BM goal would be to work up to a full set of repeaters on this hold.

I hope you enjoy a more varied bouldering diet, and that rapid success on a series of easier problems helps your confidence (as well as movement, session fitness, all round bouldering strength).

[shark]

I just think at the heart of it, 8b is hard.  7A is not, not really - so if that's his bouldering grade there's a discrepancy that needs addressing.  A woodie and some time would do that, in my not so humble opinion.

The discrepancy isnt quite that big. The start of Overnight Sensation which I did in 2007 is 7B in its own right and is still probably the hardest bloc problem Ive done although Im stronger now. 

[SA Chris]

I think you need to do more yoga

[mrjonathanr]

Have you done the undercut problems just right of Pinches wall?

[shark]

Have you done the undercut problems just right of Pinches wall?

Had a few goes. Its nails.

[Fiend]

Fun for me is grinding out a project! but I take your points and will force myself to get about more

Yes because everything you've written about trying the Oak sounds like sooooooooooo much fun 

Maybe that's why you haven't redpointed it yet, because you're enjoying the fun far too much and don't want to move on....

[nai]

Simon, sorry I'm late to this, I've skimmed a lot of it so maybe it's already been said, but it seems to me from years of following Power Club posts that when you think about bouldering you immediately look for something that plays to your strengths and get stuck into a long traverse (e.g. eatswood, Weedkiller) whereas what you should do is start trying problems that are just a few moves long and actually go upwards.  You might not enjoy it  (then again maybe you'll surprise yourself?) but having tried other approaches maybe it's time to stop twisting folks advice to suit what you'd rather hear/do and actually go try some hard moves.
As has been pointed out in the last few posts there's plenty of them to go at really close to home and a lot of them are often dry over winter (even some of the lime) so it's possible to get out and give it a go even when time is short, you can even combine it with a deadhang or PE session by going home an hour early.

[shark]

Maybe that's why you haven't redpointed it yet, because you're enjoying the fun far too much and don't want to move on....

Could be - my life will be bereft of purpose if I accidentally redpoint it.

Lagers offers an excellent counselling service.