[shark]

Without wishing to hijack Power Club and to continue the below exchange on UKC with Barrows as he seems to be in a feisty mood

From Eva's own paper: "These methods were not intended to substitute conventional climbing training but rather to serve as an additional resource for strength training. Afterwards, the other technical and physical training for that session was carried out."

Shark - "as you have to factor in prior rest to achieve the intensity required in the sessions to reap the training response."
Fair assumption perhaps, but this is not 'very much evidence based' if you're basing this on her MAW/MED paper since she doesn't test alternatives. Also, given the high variety of other training involved in that paper, I'd be careful about drawing any strong conclusions from the paper at all. Personally I think you've taken from it exactly what you wanted to take from it, irrespective of whether it's actually valid or not, and that this is holding back your training.

Since her original paper she has subsequently done a lot of coaching, blogging, written a deadhanging programme to accompany her fingerboard and broken new grades.

Yes I've taken from it what I want - an efficient and effective method of improving max finger strength which I perceive is my main weakness and therefore worth focussing on alongside bouldering as I can get endurance back fairly easily.

I would quite like to chat with you about this at some stage but not here.

In short I believe I'm on the right track to concentrate on deadhanging and bouldering to address my weak fingers and lack of bouldering ability relative to my redpoint grade especially as the project I'm training for is a bouldery route

[a dense loner]

What? What are people on about? It's Friday 13th not April 1st. If you've got weak fingers you dead hang, if you're shit at bouldering you boulder. You don't need anyone's opinion on this if someone tells you different they're a fuckin idiot

[Will Hunt]

Well that's that sorted then.

[Nibile]

Excuse me guys, could you please help me understand the concept of "weak fingers". I take it as being unable to hang or pull down a hold, but having never experienced it I struggle with it.

[Nibile]

 

[Paul B]

His point is you're taking (or originally took [weighted deadhangs on a large edge]) from the paper that this was an "efficient and effective" methodology for improving finger strength, whereas he's suggesting (and I wholeheartedly agree) that the paper fails to demonstrate this as the participants could do what the hell they wanted to the rest of the time (including following a Beastmaker deadhanging regime, or repeatedly trying a crimpy route, or eating cake if they so wished).

The fact that you've seen gains (and so have others) is neither here nor there when it comes to discussing the original paper. She may have been spot on but if she fails to demonstrate that then... 

You'd struggle to argue that Dan V (primarily boulderising i.e. small grips) has anything other than 'streng' fingers, yet you choose to follow the Lopez plan ([Spanish] sport climbing i.e. jugs), why?

That, and you prioritise your weighted hangs above absolutely everything else and whilst it may be your biggest weakness (I'm not so sure about that) you don't just neglect everything else.

ps - coaching in climbing is something that is increasingly becoming laughable as a million different people jump on the bandwagon. /rant

[shark]

Excuse me guys, could you please help me understand the concept of "weak fingers". I take it as being unable to hang or pull down a hold, but having never experienced it I struggle with it.

It's difficult to grasp

[abarro81]

as he seems to be in a feisty mood

I just found out that our thermal evaporator is destroying all the devices I put in it, so I was/am feeling antagonistic.

In short I believe I'm on the right track to concentrate on deadhanging and bouldering to address my weak fingers and lack of bouldering ability relative to my redpoint grade especially as the project I'm training for is a bouldery route

Oh fo sho. I hugely agree that you should be focusing on bouldering, deadhanging and campusing (plus some an cap). However I think you often go about it in the wrong way. If you're anything like me you'll dismiss what I write here on first reading, but I think it's worth thinking about. Also, it's just my opinion so worth getting the opinions of the like of Stu, Tom etc too on how they would modify what you're doing, if they would modify it at all.


Anyway, part of my UKC response was just being nitpicking  and antagonising . The first part of my post was in response to you saying "This can only be a complementary (or even dominant)as opposed to supplementary activity", and my point was that I doubt Eva would view it as/advocate it being dominant, it's about 20-30mins and thus probably no more than 1/3 of any decent session, and it's only being done twice per week. Sure the rest of your session could still be deadhanging though. I certainly don't think having one unchanging hangs routine as a dominant part of training is going to be the most effective thing for you (more below). The second part was me expressing some frustration at the fact that you (and others) often seem to say all the stuff she talks about is science, "very much evidence based" etc. If you look at what her paper actually does and says, it doesn't do anything about resting before the sessions, session volume, grip type, exact edge sized used, hang length (one ref on this but I've not looked it up) and the results are only measured in one particular strength test. Sure she coaches a lot, but that's no more evidence based than that other guy's statement that he's never met anyone for whom that stuff needs to be more that a comparatively small aspect of their training.

Edit: what Paul said.

Anyway, onto you (and the oak). Given that you've been climbing a long time and plateauing a long time, I personally think that your body is going to need a truck load of new and exciting stimulus to kick it out of its old ways and make a real step-change in ability. Unfortunately, you seem quite averse to this.
- You love projecting, and that seems to be the vast majority of what you do outside. Most (all?) people I know don't find epic season-long or multi-year projecting to be the best way to all-round improvements, unless complemented by a large amount of other non-epic-project stuff. Instead of spending a winter doing new problems that you could do in a session or three, at new and novel venues, you go back to last year's bit of rock and try to climb it in the opposite direction. Instead of throwing variety into your fingerboard sessions, you stick rigidly to one regime, with minimal variety of grip types or exercises. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't see either of these approaches as being the way you're going to bust out of your current plateau and onto the level where you want to be and where you can get the oak done.


I've not pulled too many punches in the above, but then I aint no politician. Like I said, if it were someone laying into my methodology and training I'd do my usual thing of thinking they were an idiot for at least an hour before considering going back and looking at their points with a more open mind, so take a day or two to think about it, see what others think etc.

P.S. Whilst we're at it, I don't buy for one minute that your optimum sustainable weight for a spring/autumn season is only about 3 lbs lighter than mine, especially when I suspect I overestimate mine because I hate dieting and love high volume training.

[shark]

You'd struggle to argue that Dan V (primarily boulderising i.e. small grips) has anything other than 'streng' fingers, yet you choose to follow the Lopez plan ([Spanish] sport climbing i.e. jugs), why?

I tried the advocated regimes from BM when I first got the board and was disappointed with the limited improvement whereas the gains from weighted hangs have been tremendous.

Are these jugs ? Maybe for you but not for me.

[shark]

Like I said, if it were someone laying into my methodology and training I'd do my usual thing of thinking they were an idiot for at least an hour before considering going back and looking at their points with a more open mind, so take a day or two to think about it, see what others think etc.

Will do

[abarro81]

I tried the advocated regimes from BM when I first got the board and was disappointed with the limited improvement whereas the gains from weighted hangs have been tremendous.

Really? The gains at deadhanging a big hold with weight on have been tremendous, you have yet to convince me that the gains in terms of rock climbing have been tremendous.

[Paul B]

Are these jugs ? Maybe for you but not for me.

Do you seriously need me to pull up a picture of the crux holds on a Font-whatever and a French-whatever to make my point about the above (regardless of how flippant I was being)?

What gains are you speaking of? If you're talking about how much added weight you can hang off yourself on a relatively large edge then my point would be are you convinced that it actually relates at all to holding onto smaller holds?

Gains are hard won.

[shark]

I tried the advocated regimes from BM when I first got the board and was disappointed with the limited improvement whereas the gains from weighted hangs have been tremendous.

Really? The gains at deadhanging a big hold with weight on have been tremendous, you have yet to convince me that the gains in terms of rock climbing have been tremendous.

And there I was thinking that maybe you weren't such an arsehole after all. There's a lesson in changing opinion right there. 

[SA Chris]

I agree with dense.

(mainly because I'm hungover and in a shit mood)

[abarro81]

Simon - I can't tell whether that was humorous or a straight-up smackdown because my posts have put you in a bad mood. If the latter, convince me - problems or routes you've done this year that were way beyond you 18 months ago, high points on the oak that have been smashed this season? Now I'm being a dick

[Fultonius]

I tried the advocated regimes from BM when I first got the board and was disappointed with the limited improvement whereas the gains from weighted hangs have been tremendous.

Really? The gains at deadhanging a big hold with weight on have been tremendous, you have yet to convince me that the gains in terms of rock climbing have been tremendous.

And there I was thinking that maybe you weren't such an arsehole after all. There's a lesson in changing opinion right there.

I don't think is the slightest bit arseholey. It's just a statement of fact, or an eroneous statement of fact.

[John Gillott]

I tried the advocated regimes from BM when I first got the board and was disappointed with the limited improvement whereas the gains from weighted hangs have been tremendous.

Really? The gains at deadhanging a big hold with weight on have been tremendous, you have yet to convince me that the gains in terms of rock climbing have been tremendous.

And there I was thinking that maybe you weren't such an arsehole after all. There's a lesson in changing opinion right there.

I don't think is the slightest bit arseholey. It's just a statement of fact, or an eroneous statement of fact.

Hey Shark,

I've followed your multi-year siege of the Oak with interest, and also your varied training for it. I haven't gone quite so far as to make notes, but no doubt you have, so I think a good thing to do would be to get a piece of paper and divide it into two columns. On one side list by date how you were doing on the Oak, and on the other what your training and climbing regime was. Maybe you've already done this? IIRC you were pretty damn close to succeeding about 18 months ago? Not very scientific of course because all sorts of other climbing and non-climbing factors in play, but might be better than nothing.

[Luke Owens]

Shark, you seem genuinely pissed that Alex has questioned (albeit bluntly) your training?

Your original post would suggest you were looking for confirmation you were on the right track?

[Adam Lincoln]

Simon, which bit of the Oak are you failing on? Is it a lack of boulder strength, lack of endurance, or is it mental. Do the moves feel hard or are you falling off powered out, or pumped?

[shark]

Yes I am pissed off for a variety of non-climbing reasons and this has pissed me off even more. Its not the first time that Bennett, Barrows or threenine have had a pop. I try consistently to improve and for once had enough of being needled. Apologies for the sense of humour failure.

First off the Oak was only in consistently good conditions this autumn for one week during which time I blew getting a high point by not allowing myself enough rest between visits (day on / day off) to make the most of the opportunity. Consequently the gains I made were not rewarded by a high point due to bad luck IMO.

Speaking of gains I can feel when bouldering that my fingers are much stronger and making moves easier than 12 months ago. I put this down to deadhanging. Maybe I can't give evidence of that or show a scorecard that proves the gains but hopefully that will come in due course.

Thirdly I tag on the weighted deadhangs after a rest day. Most of us need rest days - I certainly do - so I dont see what is problematic there about optimising the results from doing that. I am starting to do this in the morning before breakfast with a view to adding a further session of one sort or another in the evening as part of progressively increasing the number of training sessions I do throughout the winter and adding endurance work as the climbing/Malham season approaches.

There are different routes to a destination. I am confident what I am doing will get me up the Oak and maybe harder. Maybe other things would work as well or better. I have tried other approaches which havent yielded the results I was after so its not like I have been stuick in my ways. Flip flopping at this point would be counter productive. 

Sorry for this public display of ill humour 

Logpile ?       

[Paul B]

Its not the first time that Bennett, Barrows or threenine have had a pop. I try consistently to improve and for once had enough of being needled. Apologies for the sense of humour failure.

[abarro81]

You probably shouldn't have started a thread called 'Pimp my training strategy Alex' if you didn't want me lay down my opinion. Only the final 8 words of my ukc post related to your training, the rest being a rather less articulate and mildly ill tempered version of Paul's first post on here about what I think is misinterpretation of a mediocre paper.

You have my opinion on what I think would help your approach (second half of my first post on here). I stand by it. I give other people shit when I disagree with their training too. No doubt plenty think some of the stuff I do is wack, but I'd rather they told me than didn't, otherwise where are the ideas on how to change things up going to come from?

Love and kisses.

[Wood FT]

Alex,

What you're doing is wack.

Guy

[SA Chris]

It's called peer review

[Sasquatch]

Please don't logpile!  I can honestly say that despite the ill-tempers, this is one of the best discussions I've yet seen on REAL training philosophy and strategies, rather than workouts or generic crap. 

So as someone who was a big advocate for the Eva Lopez training (and still believe in the concept of Maximal strength training), I will definitely throw my $.02 in the ring.  And for what it's worth Shark-I think I agree with Barrows on this at this point. 

I tried the advocated regimes from BM when I first got the board and was disappointed with the limited improvement whereas the gains from weighted hangs have been tremendous.

Really? The gains at deadhanging a big hold with weight on have been tremendous, you have yet to convince me that the gains in terms of rock climbing have been tremendous.

This may come off a bit dickish, but I'd ask the same question.  Is there really a strong relationship between the gains?

On my end there were.  I went from being able to climb some v10's in 3-5 sessions, to being able to climb most v10's in a session, and upped my max from v10 to v12. And I'm 100% confident the finger training was the reason, as I was literally doing 3 MAW session in a week and climbing 1 day outside.  That's it, no campusing no climbing in the gym, nothing else really.  But I'm not 100% convinced they did any better than repeaters or some other mechanism for fingerboarding would have done, as I didn't/don't have a long experience with fingerboarding in general.    My fingers were without a doubt my weakpoint, so by actively addressing them, I saw massive gains.  Now that my fingers are not the weakpoint, I'm very doubtful that same training would see me progress much further, and this past summer was fairly indicative of that.  I was FBing stronger, but not really climbing any harder/better. As such, I am planning a much more rounded training this winter.

There are different routes to a destination. I am confident what I am doing will get me up the Oak and maybe harder. Maybe other things would work as well or better. I have tried other approaches which havent yielded the results I was after so its not like I have been stuick in my ways. Flip flopping at this point would be counter productive. 

I'm not convinced flip-flopping would be entirely counterproductive, but then again, I don't know your long term plan.  One thing I think climbers are particularly bad at (IMO) is understanding the process of training load adaptation.  When you look at the volume of training the top guys do(and I don't mean the pros), it would break most people and cause injuries or chronic fatigue.  Yet they've spent years building up to that.  They sacrificed whole seasons of climbing simply to develop that training base.  Now they are seeing the gains.  Maybe that is what it will take for you to get up the OAK.

Then again, I'm no expert and have no other coaching training experience outside of myself.