[SEDur]

Hi everyone.
I know supplements are a hotly contested topic, so i will try and keep this concise. 

A friend of mine has been using a carb supplement powder (phd Waxyvol) (as opposed to whey protein or whatever) pre/post workout for the past for months, and he seems to be seeing the benefits.

Has anyone tried this form of post-workout nutrition?

Does anyone know of any good alternatives to Waxyvol?

Assuming that I want a quick, convenient carb supplement.

Cheers

[Seb]

Jelly babies for quick sugar or oats for slower digested stuff maybe?

[abarro81]

I find flapjack to be a delightful pre-climb carb supplement... Or banana if you don't want the fat supplement.

[punkpunk]

A lot of 'recovery' shakes use a four to one carb to protein mix?

[krymson]

pre/post workout snacking or eating is definitely effective but carb supplements feel a bit silly to me
As others have mentioned there's so many foods out there naturally having easily digestible carbs for pre-fueling, or re-fueling, and the coveted 4:1 carb-protein mix for recovery.

We have to watch what we eat most of the time, but climbing is one period that we can have something a bit sugary to keep us going, and afterwards gorge a bit on otherwise pretty junky food and not feel guilty(beer & chips is approximately 4:1 right?    ) .Why ruin the splurge?

[Fultonius]

For a start, 4:1 is pretty much just hocus pocus. Proper trials show little or no difference between a standard energy drink (gatorade, lucozade etc.) and complex protein/carb shakes.

Secondly, really, Carb SUPPLEMENTS? You are a marketeers dream...

Like the other have said, just eat something healthy and carb rich.

Some SCIENCE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3685561/

I love papers like this where they say in the results section things like this: 

However, according to the paired sample t-tests (Table  5) the results indicate no significant mean differences between VPX and iCHO

  but then contradict themselves in the conclusions by saying (presumably becuase they are paid to by the protein shake manufacturers) things like this:

This study strongly indicates that after intense activity, consumption of a complex protein beverage may favorably influence subsequent physical performance better than an isocaloric carbohydrate drink. Based on this information, complex protein beverages may provide advantages to individuals with acute physical stressors as well as tactical operators and high performance athletes. Additional research is warranted.

Even though the results say NO IMPROVEMENT. ha. Anyway, bottom line is don't waste your money.

[SEDur]

Awesome

I will continue to not waste my money.
Marketers dream my ass.

[Muenchener]

CARB SUPPLEMENT?

I can't begin to imagine that anybody who isn't a hunter-gatherer or a paleofetishist is in any way, shape or form carb deficient.

[B-Bird]

Banana Flapjack! BOOM! And a cuppa tea

[mikester]

Don't be fooled by the marketing: this stuff has zero carbs and tastes shit (but it stops your arse rusting)

[Paul B]

I'm mixing almost all of our water for the next wall with Gatorade powder as, I WANT all the calories I can get and its fairly handy just being able to swig some down (I'm certainly not putting any flapjacks in the bag). That, and half a KG of peach rings should provide plenty of simple carbs. If they don't then I'm fairly certain my body will start eating a leg shortly.

[krymson]

that sounds like plenty. carbs make a difference but surprisingly little is needed.

My only fear with all these sweets is we're going to see an epidemic of climbers in the dentists chair.

"Good Lord, James, what happened to your teeth?"
"Carb supplements"

[abarro81]

The oher day I tried replacing flapjack to go ahead bars. It was a disaster. Flapjack is the true supplement of.choice

[Nibile]

The idea of replacing carns with a supplement sounds very strange to me. But I'm Italian. I miss flapjack a lot. Can one do it on his own?

[Nibile]

Google says so.

[Paul B]

One good recent find has been Larabars, these are much nicer than the usual Clif bars and have considerably less crap in them (they're date based and I also found a blog which offered recipes for most of the flavours which looked simple to follow).

Key Lime Pie, Lemon, Apple Pie and Carrot Cake have all been winners so far.

[TobyD]

One good recent find has been Larabars, these are much nicer than the usual Clif bars and have considerably less crap in them (they're date based and I also found a blog which offered recipes for most of the flavours which looked simple to follow).

Key Lime Pie, Lemon, Apple Pie and Carrot Cake have all been winners so far.

odwalla are really nice too. Lara bars are the ones that are marketed as 'women's' energy bars aren't they? At one with your feminine side?   When i went on a wall i took cheese, salami and bagels. Seriously, that was way better than gels and flipping gatorade.

[SEDur]

Supplement is a bad choice of word i guess. Powder?

I've seen those 'bounce' things around. Never tried one though, but they are meant to be made of good stuff (well science that is).
I asked a load of bouncers who all box and body build what they have, and the resounding reply was oats. Lots of oats.
Boxes of breakfast bars, and all that jazz.
Oats in protein shakes with water seemed to be quite popular with them and all.
Sounds, lovely.

One even said he liked to have a bunch of egg whites in chocolate milkshake, as a sort of home made protein shake.
Think i will leave that option be for the moment.

I think im going to try and figure out a way of adding various oaty into my diet over the coming months, and see how it pans out.
Doesn't solve the quick fix issue necessarily, but may be a step in the right direction...

[abarro81]

I would suggest that the archetypal body shape of a bouncer is perhaps not the one to aim for as a climber... Bounce balls/bars/whatever are well expensive and don't look particularly special from a quick google of the ingedients, what's 'well science' about them? Decide what you want, buy it from somewhere reasonably priced like myprotein and sack all the other stuff.

[mikester]

For a start, 4:1 is pretty much just hocus pocus. Proper trials show little or no difference between a standard energy drink (gatorade, lucozade etc.) and complex protein/carb shakes.

Secondly, really, Carb SUPPLEMENTS? You are a marketeers dream...

Like the other have said, just eat something healthy and carb rich.

Some SCIENCE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3685561/

I love papers like this where they say in the results section things like this: 

However, according to the paired sample t-tests (Table  5) the results indicate no significant mean differences between VPX and iCHO

  but then contradict themselves in the conclusions by saying (presumably becuase they are paid to by the protein shake manufacturers) things like this:

This study strongly indicates that after intense activity, consumption of a complex protein beverage may favorably influence subsequent physical performance better than an isocaloric carbohydrate drink. Based on this information, complex protein beverages may provide advantages to individuals with acute physical stressors as well as tactical operators and high performance athletes. Additional research is warranted.

Even though the results say NO IMPROVEMENT. ha. Anyway, bottom line is don't waste your money.

There's actually good evidence supporting  a mixture of protein and carbs to improve recovery (perhaps more so in endurance spots), and unfortunately you've cherry picked a pretty odd example. Their study investigated 4:1 protein to carb, rather than the more usual 4:1 carb to protein which effectively makes it  protein shake, and the testing protocol isn't necessarily representative of many sports. More importantly, their results did find a significant difference between treatments (check out the RM-MANOVA results) suggesting protein-carb is more effective than carb alone.

Anyway, back to the original point: I can't imagine a situation where I'd struggle to find and consume carbs as and when I need them. They're everywhere and they're not magic.

[psychomansam]

So when I (was) do(ing) 3 hour+ runs, carbs get pretty serious. I.e. jelly babies just won't cut it. So instead, if it's a training run, i might dip down into a sheltered ditch (assuming i'm on top somewhere) and have a quick banana, or a hot cross bun, or even the panacea of cheap tranportable carbs, a tesco value 30p malt loaf. Actually, I can even chew on bits of malt loaf while running.

Admittedly for races, I would put some stuff in my bladder (the one in my bag, not the one above my pubic bone). I would sometimes buy the over-priced sherbert, and sometimes i'd make my own. (A mix of potassium chloride (lo-salt, it's lethal in high doses), sodium chloride (table salt), sodium bicarbonate (bicarb) and then some type of sugar+flavouring, i.e. orange juice, or just sugar + squash. It really makes fuck all difference what type of sugar you use - please ignore the marketing bullshit. I'd also use energy gels on a long race rather than banana/hotcross bun/malt loaf as I'm moving faster and they digest easier.*

Now the only climber I've ever heard of who I can even imagine needing to get into that type of stuff would be ueli steck, but I doubt even he finds a need.

Here's what you need: http://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/tesco-price-comparison/bread/tesco_everyday_value_malt_loaf.html

*I took up a teaching post a year ago. The stress has destroyed my stomach so I can hardly run anymore. This has also made me fat, which isn't helping the climbing much. C'est la vie, I intend to hand in notice for the end of this next school year.

[Nibile]

In the very probable case that I don't find corn syrup in supermarkets, what else can I use to make flapjack?
Honey?

[mrjonathanr]

Surely this?

[Nibile]

In the very probable case that I don't find corn - OR GOLDEN - syrup in supermarkets, what else can I use to make flapjack?
Honey?

[Nibile]

Thanks anyway.

[mrjonathanr]

 

[Nibile]

In the oven with honey right now.

[Nibile]

Flapjack = good.
Honey = good.
Good + good = good.
 

[kelvin]

Flapjack is a main staple when I'm climbing, walking etc but if you can be arsed, then homemade ones are so much nicer, no matter how bad a 'cook' you are. Peanuts, chocolate, berries - the choice is yours. I've stayed away from making them as the temptation to make too many and eat them all would often be too much and rather self-defeating.

I did a 69 mile ultra last year. Forget the gels, all I wanted was white bread jam sandwiches... I normally hate them but that's all my body wanted. Took flapjack and almost vomited when I tried to eat it, yet I'd done nearly all my training on the stuff.

[webbo]

In my humble opinion which is based on 40 years of endurance sports. It's all about the training, if you have not done enough or done it right. Nothing you eat or drink will change that. If you batter yourself in to the ground training then no recovery drink will help you wake up the next day as though you have had a rest day.                                                     I use a heart rate monitor which tells me how many calories I have used based on max heart rate,age, sex, weight. It will not be 100percent accurate but fairly close. According to it I will often burn 3 or 4000 cals while only consuming about a 1000. You just need to learn to burn fat.

[mark s]

blend oats in milk
sweet potatoes

cheap as fook 

[Muenchener]

I did a 69 mile ultra last year. Forget the gels, all I wanted was white bread jam sandwiches

A guy I used to know was the then (late 80s) holder of the Pennine Way record in somewhere around 3 days. He fuelled himself with corned beef and onion sandwiches.

[Nibile]

So, the flapjack is very tasty. I used honey and added some jam. But it's very crumbly, so that I basically need a spoon to eat it.
What went wrong?
Not enough baked?
Too much/too little honey?
Opinions?

[kelvin]

Over cooked? If you over bake them, that can dry them out too much and they just fall apart.

[Nibile]

Makes sense. Will try again.
Cheers.

[SEDur]

I haven't had a chance to watch this video yet, but this guy seems to know his stuff (got his Phd).

For anyone who wanted to know this stuff.

http://www.biolayne.com/nutrition/biolayne-video-log-18-carbohydrate-metabolism-what-intake-is-right-for-you/

[Paul B]

When i went on a wall i took cheese, salami and bagels. Seriously, that was way better than gels and flipping gatorade.

Its been 35'c! Cheese sweats just a little less than myself. And, no. You're thinking of Lunabars.

[TobyD]

When i went on a wall i took cheese, salami and bagels. Seriously, that was way better than gels and flipping gatorade.

Its been 35'c! Cheese sweats just a little less than myself. And, no. You're thinking of Lunabars.

ah yes. i did freerider in late october  chilly then! lunabars then.... well i liked them.

[wintermute]

So, the flapjack is very tasty. I used honey and added some jam. But it's very crumbly, so that I basically need a spoon to eat it.
What went wrong?
Not enough baked?
Too much/too little honey?
Opinions?

Size of oats can make a difference to crumbliness. Generally, the finer the oats the more integrity the flapjack has. Ideally use a mixture of fine (to bind it together) and whole (to give it better texture) oats.

[duncan]

webbo, thanks for this blast of common sense.

I can see how you could deplete glycogen by running or cycling to the point where you have to start metabolising fat. I’m sure Ueli Steck is training something similar for his big alpine days. How different is rock climbing? Harder to deplete (you are sitting around doing nothing for >50% of the time) or easier (the muscles involved are much smaller)?

Or to put it another way, how do I train for a hypothetical rock route that is 900m long and expected to take about 18 hours?

[Muenchener]

I can see how you could deplete glycogen by running or cycling to the point where you have to start metabolising fat.

Mark Twight talks extensively about this in Extreme Alpinism

[webbo]

webbo, thanks for this blast of common sense.

I can see how you could deplete glycogen by running or cycling to the point where you have to start metabolising fat. I’m sure Ueli Steck is training something similar for his big alpine days. How different is rock climbing? Harder to deplete (you are sitting around doing nothing for >50% of the time) or easier (the muscles involved are much smaller)?

Or to put it another way, how do I train for a hypothetical rock route that is 900m long and expected to take about 18 hours?

I guess you would try to have long, long days try to climb non stop doing routes harder than goal route. Also doing much shorter but much harder routes.
my bike training is short fast interval sessions during the week with a long ride at the weekend, which if shorter than my goal ride. I will try and go harder than I plan on the goal ride.
When I was racing and training on a regular basis, racing around 50 to 60 miles. I could go ride a 100 miles without to much trouble due riding at a slower pace so it wasn't taking much out of me. Didn't Ben Moon just go from a period of hard bouldering and  do some routes with no problem because the moves were easier and not troubling him.                                                           

[duncan]

Mark Twight talks extensively about this in Extreme Alpinism

Isn't he a snow-plodder though?

I confess to having never read it despite it being a classic of some sort. I shall rectify this immediately. I hope he doesn't insist on me listening to The Young Gods (ha!), swinging kettle balls or shooting hand-guns.

[SEDur]

webbo, thanks for this blast of common sense.

I can see how you could deplete glycogen by running or cycling to the point where you have to start metabolising fat. I’m sure Ueli Steck is training something similar for his big alpine days. How different is rock climbing? Harder to deplete (you are sitting around doing nothing for >50% of the time) or easier (the muscles involved are much smaller)?

Or to put it another way, how do I train for a hypothetical rock route that is 900m long and expected to take about 18 hours?

I guess you would try to have long, long days try to climb non stop doing routes harder than goal route. Also doing much shorter but much harder routes.
my bike training is short fast interval sessions during the week with a long ride at the weekend, which if shorter than my goal ride. I will try and go harder than I plan on the goal ride.
When I was racing and training on a regular basis, racing around 50 to 60 miles. I could go ride a 100 miles without to much trouble due riding at a slower pace so it wasn't taking much out of me. Didn't Ben Moon just go from a period of hard bouldering and  do some routes with no problem because the moves were easier and not troubling him.                                                         

I suppose it wouldn't go amiss to get a copy of race weight out of the local library, as i think this is the kind of topic it covers.