[grumpybearpants]

I've spent the last couple of weeks wondering if I'd get a denial, rebuttal, or demand for retraction  (my post was pointed out by someone over on the other side) but it has happened yet.

When I first found out I managed to get Alan on the phone and demanded an explanation for how they'd got hold of my script. At the end of the call Alan asked me if I was to apologize to him.

Did you ask for the reason why he thought an apology was required?

[bubbles]

the best thing about all this whole rather juvenile thread is how it has bought to light what UKBers really are.  You are exactly the same as the UKCers you despise, which in turn makes you worse as you believe you are so much better

[Doylo]

the best thing about all this whole rather juvenile thread is how it has bought to light what UKBers really are.  You are exactly the same as the UKCers you despise, which in turn makes you worse as you believe you are so much better

Never mind that we need to know more about Chris Craggs resume..

[tomtom]

the best thing about all this whole rather juvenile thread is how it has bought to light what UKBers really are.  You are exactly the same as the UKCers you despise, which in turn makes you worse as you believe you are so much better

And by posting the above, you clearly believe you are a superior being... which of course you are darling.. xx

[DimContio]

the t-shirt analogy is good, very good. but cancer is a bit different to bolts isn't it?

I did think about that before I made it. Donating money to cancer research is great and worthy indeed, but it is a drop in an ocean of funding with little measurable outcome for those involved. Writing guidebooks for free is worthy too, but involves much more effort to be put in, and gives a much more tangible benefit for the rest of us who add our contribution in the form of the cover price. I think the two balance out, at least for the sake of the analogy.

Try telling that to the research scientists trying to find cures/make drugs more effective etc, and the doctors and nurses who have to watch people suffering and dying. Pete can sack it all off anytime if he wants, and it wont really have any major adverse effects, the cancer dudes need money to live on and the people they are trying to help would be in trouble too... but i get your point.

For me you are missing the main point - the funding for bolts represents the tip of an iceberg that includes the bolting work, and producing the definitive guide. This effort put into these two represents a far bigger contribution than any funding for bolts.

So what is it that you all want Alan to do?? Get a drill out and give a helping hand? If he wasn't making a profit/living from NWC would you be bothered?? Why did everyone make such a fuss about the lack of donations if its not the point?? If no-one goes and climbs on NWL then Pete's work will be in vain. so at least it'll put NWL on the map a bit. Again I really dont think it will take many sales from NWL. Surely NWL is gonna take sales from the A55 guides? You'd have to be a bit of a muppet to buy that if it is included in NWL...

Not only do not RF routinely contribute even to the bolt fund for areas they cover, but they rely on the hard work of others for the raw materials of their product - the routes and the information. This is why they are known as 'topo vampires' in Europe. If climbing was bigger business I have little doubt their modus operandi would be stopped by a court of law.

How do normal guidebooks get written then? Pete has already stated he has been using the rockfax to help write the guide. someone else bolted/climbed all those routes previous to Pete rocking up. He like everyone else who writes a guidebook has relied on the hard work of others for the raw materials of his product?? (Excuse my ignorance of guidebook writing but surely plagiarism on a level is just how it works?)

Admittedly it is a bit gyp on the euro guide front but a lot of euro guides are pretty gyp! In my experience the best thing to do was have RF and a local, you have contributed, and can sort of cross-reference though the rockfax tends to get used more than the local offering.

I'm not sure about the court of law thing. a lot of bad shit goes on in big business... but I don't know enough about big business/the evil empire.

Also no-one bothered about DMM ripping off BD camalots?? they are better for UK trad (IMO) but still no more effort put into it than you claim RF put into their guides! The prototypes where exactly the same but with a different sling!

Any road. nighty night UKBers

[abarro81]

I AM the hero of the New World Order. Bitch. I'll kick Sly's ass any day.

It goes without saying that I would donate all proceeds to research to mitigate the harmful effects of Barrows, and eventually find a cure.

Effects on British citizens could be mitigated by putting the proceeds towards the 'send Barrows to Europe' fund.

[peewee]

Effects on British citizens could be mitigated by putting the proceeds towards the 'send Barrows to Europe' fund.

Hrrrm Europe is a bit close to home.

[tomtom]

We could pay for this in BitBarrows, a new internet based Climbers currency where BitBarrows are 'mined' via unsuccessful red point attempts at grotty peak lime routes.

[crimp]

   Barrows?

[shark]

  Barrows?

quite

[Offwidth]

Try telling that to the research scientists trying to find cures/make drugs more effective etc, and the doctors and nurses who have to watch people suffering and dying. Pete can sack it all off anytime if he wants, and it wont really have any major adverse effects, the cancer dudes need money to live on and the people they are trying to help would be in trouble too... but i get your point.

So what is it that you all want Alan to do?? Get a drill out and give a helping hand? If he wasn't making a profit/living from NWC would you be bothered?? Why did everyone make such a fuss about the lack of donations if its not the point?? If no-one goes and climbs on NWL then Pete's work will be in vain. so at least it'll put NWL on the map a bit. Again I really dont think it will take many sales from NWL. Surely NWL is gonna take sales from the A55 guides? You'd have to be a bit of a muppet to buy that if it is included in NWL...

How do normal guidebooks get written then? Pete has already stated he has been using the rockfax to help write the guide. someone else bolted/climbed all those routes previous to Pete rocking up. He like everyone else who writes a guidebook has relied on the hard work of others for the raw materials of his product?? (Excuse my ignorance of guidebook writing but surely plagiarism on a level is just how it works?)

Speaking as a mainly UKC poster I thought this might deserve a straighter response. You were lampooned above on these argument which is the normal UKB (and maybe the best) way to respond but how do we practically go about living a moral life ignoring small wrongs until the big ones are conquered? The cancer researchers I work with and doctors and nurses I know certainly wouldn't want us to do that.

One thing I want Alan to do is negotiate, as I said on the other channel. That means more than just making an offer because as several have pointed out here, once the problem is identified, the solution should, if we are being reasonable, be fair to most of us and currently it still isn't clear that it is.  The two teams need to talk until it does look fair to the community. I'd also like Alan's team to have more input to the areas they cover, as they do in the best of their guides. When they started they were the small outsider with the aim of producing user friendly material in contrast to the rather rigid and old fashioned definitives. They are now a big fish and although the original ethos could carry over to some areas in Europe it won't here with a classy looking definitive on the way for a less popular area that relies more sensitively on volunteers and bolt funds. The continuation of this line of argument answers your last questions, most guidebook production stands proudly on the shoulders of those who came before and looks to build significantly on previous efforts and as such is happily accepted  by the community.

The stuff about DMM is back to your pointless comparative weighing of unconnected moral issues. Start a new thread.

[Johnny Brown]

How do normal guidebooks get written then? Pete has already stated he has been using the rockfax to help write the guide. someone else bolted/climbed all those routes previous to Pete rocking up. He like everyone else who writes a guidebook has relied on the hard work of others for the raw materials of his product?? (Excuse my ignorance of guidebook writing but surely plagiarism on a level is just how it works?)

The definitive guides typically get written by teams of volunteers. Depending on the area these can be big teams, buidling on the work of many previous guides, or they can be small teams, working from scratch or building on limited information. Again, depending on the area bolted climbing may or may not comprise a significant number of the routes. In an area like the Peak you have a hugely popular area which has been covered by definitive and select guides for years, so no one is hugely bothered by RF releasing their own select grit guides - some of the RF authors have been on guide teams in the past, and their is no ongoing maintenance of the climb required.

Occasionally you get a case like this where one or two individuals have put in huge amounts of time, money and effort to equip or re-equip an area, and want to produce a guide both to fund and/ or showcase their efforts. They should be given a free run at that - its that simple.

As Offwidth said, what would be nice would be some open negotiation and compromise, which has not happened despite what you read on UKC.

As for the DMM/ Camalot question - you have two companies competing in an open market - so not the same, and one decides not to maintain their patents - so not the same. What about all the other companies that make cams copying the original WC design? Do you boycott them too?

[SA Chris]

the best thing about all this whole rather juvenile thread is how it has bought to light what UKBers really are.  You are exactly the same as the UKCers you despise, which in turn makes you worse as you believe you are so much better

I've read this half a dozen times, and it still makes no sense? What are UKBers really? In what way are we exactly the same? We are all climbers, we all use the internet, we are all humans?

Please elaborate, I'm just a dumb boulderer.

[Stubbs]

the best thing about all this whole rather juvenile thread is how it has bought to light what UKBers really are.  You are exactly the same as the UKCers you despise, which in turn makes you worse as you believe you are so much better

Hello,

I tried to post this on cocktalk, but after three replies thought I might get better answers on a website where people actually climb...

[grumpybearpants]

the t-shirt analogy is good, very good. but cancer is a bit different to bolts isn't it? Or is climbing really really really important??

Firstly, it is an analogy, nothing more. Secondly, if people do not speak up then issues do not get resolved. If people hadn't have said anything then there is every possibility the RF would have been more extensive and there would not have been any NWBF contributions. So to answer your second question. Is climbing really, really, really important? To other climbers, yes.

Then everyone was angry that Alan had said he had donated to "bolt funds" (the exact terminology used I think). So when it was found that the last time he donated to a North Walian Bolt Fund was when he had done the previous guide (That Pete is using to make his guide - ironic??) there is an outrage. Im pretty sure Alan said he had donated to bolt funds in general, and if you look on the RF website, when you go to buy a book, you are given the option of donating to the dorset bolt fund or the ACT... evil, I know.

why don't you actually check the exact terminology. If fact, I will do that for you. AJ posted "We gave money in the past to the North Wales Bolt Fund". He has since capitulated when presented with overwhelming evidence that his statement was incorrect. Any outrage is quite justifiable when someone is found to be making quite misleading statements.

So now that Alan said he'll donate profits (and no doubt add the NWBF into the RF checkout system) and reduce coverage, everyone still has a hissy fit! Pretty unbelievable, though highly entertaining.

You can see my beef is not about the contribution - I've said twice on UKC that it is commendable. What I though was below the belt was the announcement differentiating the two books by the way they will contribute to the fund. There was no need for the announcement to attempt a 'one-upmanship' over NWL. It is petty and factually incomplete and to those reading it, they may feel buying the RF guide is better as the fund will get much needed cash more quickly.

Maybe we should remember that there are people starving in the world who probably dont give 2 shits about some bolts in the second worst climbing venue in North Wales 

And maybe we need to remember that we need to act whether it be starving children or bolt issues because if we do nothing both will suffer.

[gme]

I cant believe how this thread has ended up talking about cancer, starving kids etc. its only a fucking guidebook for gods sake. It all just looks like a bit of petty UKC v UKB vendetta bullshit now, which is never nice.

Rockfax are a business and were welcomed with open arms by nearly everyone when they started as the BMC/Climbing club guides for most areas were hopelessly out of date. We all buy them and all use them. Alan has built a business around this and has overheads to pay but in doing so you all compare him to Satan. I don't think he is doing anything wrong unless he is actually stealing stuff that Pete has written, and as has been pointed out so many times all new guides ultimately rely on the old ones for a lot of there content.

Also i dont think that he should be put under pressure to donate to the bolt fund if he doesn't want to, there must be 1000s of people who climb these routes who don't contribute or the fund would be big enough to employ a full time bolter. Are you going to go round confronting every climber then slagging them off and calling them parasites at the crag when they admit not to donating.

As i said a while ago in the thread spend all your time on making your guide the best Pete and people will buy it. A minority of people on here and elsewhere may buy it for altruistic reasons however good or bad it is but 99% of people will buy it based on quality. If climbers are the same as they were when i was young and keen they will buy both books, i guess they cost £15 or so each which is not a lot of money.

[DaveC]

  Have a wad point, couldn't have put it better myself.

[highrepute]

I cant believe how this thread has ended up talking about cancer, starving kids etc. its only a fucking guidebook for gods sake. It all just looks like a bit of petty UKC v UKB vendetta bullshit now, which is never nice.

personally I don't see this vibe. It might only be a guidebook but if you believe in something then you should stand up for it.

Rockfax are a business and were welcomed with open arms by nearly everyone when they started as the BMC/Climbing club guides for most areas were hopelessly out of date. We all buy them and all use them. Alan has built a business around this and has overheads to pay but in doing so you all compare him to Satan. I don't think he is doing anything wrong unless he is actually stealing stuff that Pete has written, and as has been pointed out so many times all new guides ultimately rely on the old ones for a lot of there content.

I see this differently. I have bought rockfax's and they were good. I liked them and appreciated the effort put it. Then they come along and shit all over NWL guide (my opinion). From my perspective he's lied (bolt fund donations), told false truths (number of routes included), plagerised (see andyd's posts) and it's quite shocking to see him squirm and wriggle to avoid having to apologise. It feels like a kick in the teeth for me having bought and supported his guides that he could turn around a effectively harm climbing (in north wales) with full knowledge of his actions.

Also i dont think that he should be put under pressure to donate to the bolt fund if he doesn't want to, there must be 1000s of people who climb these routes who don't contribute or the fund would be big enough to employ a full time bolter. Are you going to go round confronting every climber then slagging them off and calling them parasites at the crag when they admit not to donating.

I didn't think he was put under much pressure to donate. He even said he does donate which turned out to be a lie. It looks to me like the decision to donate was made in an attempt at damage limitation. I won't be fooled.

The point is by buying the NWL guide you will have donated to the bolt fund (Until Alan's U-turn the opposite was true of buying rockfax as it would reduce NWL sales). so if every climber would have donated. Of course it would be nice if every climber chose to donate to their relevant bolt fund but they aren't attempting to make money from climbing like rockfax.

As i said a while ago in the thread spend all your time on making your guide the best Pete and people will buy it. A minority of people on here and elsewhere may buy it for altruistic reasons however good or bad it is but 99% of people will buy it based on quality. If climbers are the same as they were when i was young and keen they will buy both books, i guess they cost £15 or so each which is not a lot of money.

Guides cost more than £15 these days. I imagine it'll be more like £25. Pete is spending a lot of time making the best guide. If he'd taken your advice then the concessions alan has made and exposure of rockfax's questionable tactics wouldn't have been made and the NWL guide and thus the bolt fund and in turn climbing on north wales lime would have suffered. Should he have just stayed silent?

[a dense loner]

Having bought and supported his guides? I think that's a bit strong. Did you not buy them to find out route info? Ive never referred to myself as supporting costa, or five ten, or Yamasaki whiskey. More I think they deliver me what I like at a price I'm willing to pay.

My girlfriends a cancer research nurse, I've just told her about the guidebook and the comparison. This is what she said "what there's climbing in Wales?"

[Alan James, Rockfax]

I don't wish to get involved with other issues but I feel I must say something about Andy Popp's posts.

Just before publishing the Western Grit guide in 2008, a respected and knowledgable local climber helped us by checking some of our text for Helsby. He marked the new lines on our provisional pages along with a number of other minor corrections.

We took the feedback at face value, why wouldn't we? I don't know whether this local climber was aware that Andy Popp hadn't climbed the routes that he had marked on the feedback but I suspect not since I can't understand why he wouldn't have mentioned it.

This degree of checking is normal in guidebook writing and no-one is ever going to get second opinions on every bit of feedback they get from reliable local sources, especially when it happens so close to publication, hence we published the guide with these as-yet unclimbed new routes.

Andy then phoned Chris and accused him of stealing private information which I am pretty sure Chris was oblivious about since the feedback had come to me at a late stage. Andy also threatened Chris with legal action. I phoned Andy and explained where we had got the info from and I distinctly remember the pause at the end of the phone when the penny dropped and he realised the information source.

So at best here we have a slight misunderstanding which Andy over-reacted to, at worst we have Andy getting over-excitied about a new route and claiming it before he had climbed it, neither of which are that significant really.

To now use this story as a slight against our research in the way he has on this thread is utterly disgraceful.

Alan

PS. anyone else wishing to discuss the general topic of this thread is welcome to email me on alan [at] ukclimbing.com

[highrepute]

Having bought and supported his guides? I think that's a bit strong.

yes I agree. I retract that part of my statement.

[grumpybearpants]

I don't wish to get involved with other issues but I feel I must say something about Andy Popp's posts.

PS. anyone else wishing to discuss the general topic of this thread is welcome to email me on alan [at] ukclimbing.com

I would have thought it better/easier/transparent for all to see on the thread rather than getting multiple emails about the same subject and having to reply to the individuals.

It also means there is traceability when ambiguity arises.

[petejh]

...
PS. anyone else wishing to discuss the general topic of this thread is welcome to email me on alan [at] ukclimbing.com

Anyone, that is, except me (the guide author).

[grumpybearpants]

Just before publishing the Western Grit guide in 2008, a respected and knowledgable local climber helped us by checking some of our text for Helsby.
This degree of checking is normal in guidebook writing and no-one is ever going to get second opinions on every bit of feedback they get from reliable local sources,

Whilst Alan has said the way this unclimbed route got into the guidebook is not significant an issue I find it odd the use of the term reliable sources.

Would, as Andy said earlier "The only place the name and grade of this non route were ever recorded was in an entirely private early draft of my script for the definitive BMC guide", be what would be counted as a reliable source document? If so, I presume it was referred to in said guidebook and Andy Popp thanked for his contribution?

I don't own the guidebook but would love to know if this is the case.

[Will Hunt]

Alan, you're basically saying that it's your word against Andy's. In the absence of a response from Andy and in light of the revelations about the disparity between Rockfax's actual contributions to the NWBF and those you represented, do you think you can expect to have any credibility here?