I've spent the last couple of weeks wondering if I'd get a denial, rebuttal, or demand for retraction (my post was pointed out by someone over on the other side) but it has happened yet.When I first found out I managed to get Alan on the phone and demanded an explanation for how they'd got hold of my script. At the end of the call Alan asked me if I was to apologize to him.
the best thing about all this whole rather juvenile thread is how it has bought to light what UKBers really are. You are exactly the same as the UKCers you despise, which in turn makes you worse as you believe you are so much better
Quotethe t-shirt analogy is good, very good. but cancer is a bit different to bolts isn't it?I did think about that before I made it. Donating money to cancer research is great and worthy indeed, but it is a drop in an ocean of funding with little measurable outcome for those involved. Writing guidebooks for free is worthy too, but involves much more effort to be put in, and gives a much more tangible benefit for the rest of us who add our contribution in the form of the cover price. I think the two balance out, at least for the sake of the analogy.
the t-shirt analogy is good, very good. but cancer is a bit different to bolts isn't it?
For me you are missing the main point - the funding for bolts represents the tip of an iceberg that includes the bolting work, and producing the definitive guide. This effort put into these two represents a far bigger contribution than any funding for bolts.
Not only do not RF routinely contribute even to the bolt fund for areas they cover, but they rely on the hard work of others for the raw materials of their product - the routes and the information. This is why they are known as 'topo vampires' in Europe. If climbing was bigger business I have little doubt their modus operandi would be stopped by a court of law.
It goes without saying that I would donate all proceeds to research to mitigate the harmful effects of Barrows, and eventually find a cure.
Effects on British citizens could be mitigated by putting the proceeds towards the 'send Barrows to Europe' fund.
Barrows?
Try telling that to the research scientists trying to find cures/make drugs more effective etc, and the doctors and nurses who have to watch people suffering and dying. Pete can sack it all off anytime if he wants, and it wont really have any major adverse effects, the cancer dudes need money to live on and the people they are trying to help would be in trouble too... but i get your point. So what is it that you all want Alan to do?? Get a drill out and give a helping hand? If he wasn't making a profit/living from NWC would you be bothered?? Why did everyone make such a fuss about the lack of donations if its not the point?? If no-one goes and climbs on NWL then Pete's work will be in vain. so at least it'll put NWL on the map a bit. Again I really dont think it will take many sales from NWL. Surely NWL is gonna take sales from the A55 guides? You'd have to be a bit of a muppet to buy that if it is included in NWL...How do normal guidebooks get written then? Pete has already stated he has been using the rockfax to help write the guide. someone else bolted/climbed all those routes previous to Pete rocking up. He like everyone else who writes a guidebook has relied on the hard work of others for the raw materials of his product?? (Excuse my ignorance of guidebook writing but surely plagiarism on a level is just how it works?)
How do normal guidebooks get written then? Pete has already stated he has been using the rockfax to help write the guide. someone else bolted/climbed all those routes previous to Pete rocking up. He like everyone else who writes a guidebook has relied on the hard work of others for the raw materials of his product?? (Excuse my ignorance of guidebook writing but surely plagiarism on a level is just how it works?)
Hello,I tried to post this on cocktalk, but after three replies thought I might get better answers on a website where people actually climb...
the t-shirt analogy is good, very good. but cancer is a bit different to bolts isn't it? Or is climbing really really really important??
Then everyone was angry that Alan had said he had donated to "bolt funds" (the exact terminology used I think). So when it was found that the last time he donated to a North Walian Bolt Fund was when he had done the previous guide (That Pete is using to make his guide - ironic??) there is an outrage. Im pretty sure Alan said he had donated to bolt funds in general, and if you look on the RF website, when you go to buy a book, you are given the option of donating to the dorset bolt fund or the ACT... evil, I know.
So now that Alan said he'll donate profits (and no doubt add the NWBF into the RF checkout system) and reduce coverage, everyone still has a hissy fit! Pretty unbelievable, though highly entertaining.
Maybe we should remember that there are people starving in the world who probably dont give 2 shits about some bolts in the second worst climbing venue in North Wales
I cant believe how this thread has ended up talking about cancer, starving kids etc. its only a fucking guidebook for gods sake. It all just looks like a bit of petty UKC v UKB vendetta bullshit now, which is never nice.
Rockfax are a business and were welcomed with open arms by nearly everyone when they started as the BMC/Climbing club guides for most areas were hopelessly out of date. We all buy them and all use them. Alan has built a business around this and has overheads to pay but in doing so you all compare him to Satan. I don't think he is doing anything wrong unless he is actually stealing stuff that Pete has written, and as has been pointed out so many times all new guides ultimately rely on the old ones for a lot of there content.
Also i dont think that he should be put under pressure to donate to the bolt fund if he doesn't want to, there must be 1000s of people who climb these routes who don't contribute or the fund would be big enough to employ a full time bolter. Are you going to go round confronting every climber then slagging them off and calling them parasites at the crag when they admit not to donating.
As i said a while ago in the thread spend all your time on making your guide the best Pete and people will buy it. A minority of people on here and elsewhere may buy it for altruistic reasons however good or bad it is but 99% of people will buy it based on quality. If climbers are the same as they were when i was young and keen they will buy both books, i guess they cost £15 or so each which is not a lot of money.
Having bought and supported his guides? I think that's a bit strong.
I don't wish to get involved with other issues but I feel I must say something about Andy Popp's posts.PS. anyone else wishing to discuss the general topic of this thread is welcome to email me on alan [at] ukclimbing.com
...PS. anyone else wishing to discuss the general topic of this thread is welcome to email me on alan [at] ukclimbing.com
Just before publishing the Western Grit guide in 2008, a respected and knowledgable local climber helped us by checking some of our text for Helsby. This degree of checking is normal in guidebook writing and no-one is ever going to get second opinions on every bit of feedback they get from reliable local sources,