[Fiend]

Very much in the idle speculation realm of topics

I am musing on what routes around England and Wales I would really like to do and aspire to do, which might not be the same was what other people aspire to do, and am wondering what I might have missed out off my list (see below)

The rules:

1. NO big long uphill walk-ins.
2. No "once great but now overgrown" stuff (that means YOU Tap Y Gigfran and Craig Y Hryddod).
3. Preferably not stuff that is super-conditionsy-sea-cliff-greasy.
4. Preferably not stuff that involves massive anti-Fiend reaches or spans.
5. Preferably not stuff that is really hard to find on obscure slopes and hidden abseils.

This is what I have so far:

Cornwall:
Longships Wall
Antennae

North Devon:

Carn Gowla:
America
Halcyon Days
Pentire Point:
Black Magic
Darkinbad The Brightdayler
Reflections
Half Dome:
Creeping Flesh
Blackchurch:
Godspell
Baggy Point:
Soft Touch

South Devon:
Sanctuary Wall:
Call To Arms
False Gods

South Wales:
Pembroke:
No routes in particular.

Mid Wales:
Bird Rock:
Diamond Eliminate
Craig Y Llam:
Tyburn Gate
Moelwyns:
Crimson Cruiser
Non-Dairy Creamer
Nesscliffe:
Jump
Cones & Coronets

North Wales:
Lleyn:
Manx Groove
Byzantium
Direct Hit
Path To Rome
Hyll-Drem:
King Kong
Samurai Groove
Cloggy (by train in a day w/bribed second):
Great Wall
The Axe
The Boldest
Gogarth:
Warpath
Rhapsody Of The Deep
Pagan

Lake District:
Dry Grasp
The Cumbrian
Wheels Of Fire

Northumberland:
First Born
Poseidon Adventure
Endless Flight
On The Verge

......obviously there are some shocking honeypot Rockfax Top 50 type trade routes on there but overall it should give an idea of what inspires me. I prefer Torbay limestone to Pembroke limestone, and find Mid-Wales more interesting than North Wales, and I like quarries 

Stuff wot I have done:
Long Quarry Point, Bass Point, Sharpnose, Cow & Calf, Hartland, Kellan Head, Rhinnogs, Craig Y Mwn, Berwynion, Craig Cwyarch, other South Stack cliffs, other Rhoscolyn routes, Pass / Ogwen / Slate classics, most of the accessible Lakes stuff (Reecastle Black Crag Goat Crag Dow Slate etc), Armathwaite, etc etc.

Hit me with the ideas then...

[tomtom]

Pex

[Hoseyb]

Taith Mawr 

[Pantontino]

East Face of the Vivian E2/3 multi level link up. Great slatey fun with a few options/variations. Almost zero walk in, and a walk down the steps afterwards.

[Pantontino]

Fantasia on Red Wall is excellent (I'm assuming you've done Red Wall).

[chris j]

In the South Devon category I presume you've done Dreadnaught, or else it's been dismissed because the walk-in is too far.

Incidentally if you're down this way and fancy another go at Sanctuary Wall look me up & I'll provide a bit more moral support and not be quite so keen to wuss out next time...

[quiffhanger]

Don't forget about Dorset!

Lean Machine is possibly my favourite (and definitely pumpiest) E5 ever. Do it, War of the Worlds & Ocean Boulevard the same day and you'll be grinning ear-ear. Walk in is ~30mins but flat. Mother Africa is good 2 but a sandbag. Can suffer a bit from the grease but not majorly if they've had some sun on them. got plenty more for you get the Swanage bug.

No gritstone?

PS: I think they're all 3*/Top50 in the guidebook but Swanage is pretty off-piste in it's entirety so they should qualify

[csl]

The Axe is mega, definitely do it!

Other good pitches around the grade in the area.

How about Rimsky Korsakov, What a difference a day Makes and El Guide Direct at Cwm Clas Bach. 

For Pembroke, routes i've enjoyed have been Star Wars and Bloody Sunday.

[Fiend]

Done Pex.

Pretty sure I did Dreadnaught with you, Chris!

I did Wendigo rather than Red Wall, I prefered the line.

Cwm Glas Bach is a good call, greased off Weasels before but not done much else.

Swanage doesn't inspire me that much i.e. at all but those that you listed would be good choices if I was forced to go there!

[chris j]

Could be, I know I've been up Dreadnaught at least twice, the slightly intense memory of reaching and then falling off the 1st belay when 2nding Shark (when I will admit to being just a little out of my depth) tends to crowd out the other ascents. I do remember a biting cold belay on the 2nd pitch of Renegade at LQP and some Torbryan action which you grudgingly admitted was better than you'd expected...

[tomtom]

Done Pex.

More sherioushly, from my time living in Mid Wales, I wouldnt go to Bird Rock again.. and much of the stuff in the Moelwyns was very very dirty (and with bit walk ins) when I checked it out.. BUT, some of the big multi-pitches on Cadiar Idris looked mega - Culfi arete was the only one I did (big V Diff IIRC..).. might be some more stuff on there to check out? (bout an hour walk in though - but on good paths etc..)

Cromlech classics?

[Johnny Brown]

At Doris Wanton Desire is better than Direct Hit - very similar climbing but slightly harder. Trends right at half-height to gain a thin crack which takes you to the headwall in a splendid no man's land. Direct hit is a tad vague and escapable.

Why isn't Vulture on your list?

What have you already done at Nesscliffe? Marlene is a good warm-up for Cones and currents at soft E4, but there are plenty more.

[andy popp]

This is probably going to make horrify a lot of people but I think Avon is an essential experience and offers huge amounts at mid-extreme.

[crimp]

The central tower routes at spion kop quarry in forest of Dean fits your bill. Mid extremes, 30m high quarried sandstone, off piste for sure.

[Fiend]

Chris: I do apologise for any frostbite/hypothermia on Renegade and really appreciate you doing those routes with me, it was very rewarding.

Tomtom: I've been to a lot of the Moelwyn crags and had a good time. Cader does have some very inspiring looking stuff but I think the walk-in will be too much.

JB: Vulture isn't on my list because I'm sure you promised to do it with me but surely I couldn't drag a sensible dad over there for a "death for both members of the party route" :p . Will take note of Wanton Desire, also the routes around the Jacuzzi sound cool. I've done Marlene (good fun), Bruce Hooper (sketchy) and Straight Talk (harder than Marlene).

Andy:  BUT Arm's Race and the one next to it should be on my list, I like that upper wall.

Adge: Eeeek, Pylon King territory, I'm sure he's going to give me a tour at some point  again.

[andy popp]

Now I'm all hurt 

[Fiend]

You're right, there is a woeful lack of Cheshire Sandstone on my list. But I've led the leadable Pex ones, The Brush Off scares me, and, errr....oh there is some roof crack up the top of Helsby, right. And the wall right of Flake Crack.

[andy popp]

Is Houghton accessible now? Rhodedendron Buttress and Boudicca (sp?) are both brilliant.

[jern]

Your forgot a couple in Cornwall:

Cain at Pordenack Point

Kafoozalem & Raven Wall at Bosigran

Mastodon at Carn Gloose is great too.

And at Cheddar:

Ahimsa - amazing 2nd pitch

Maybe they're all a bit mainstream - but is that really bad?

[andy popp]

Good call, Ahimsa is fucking brilliant!

[shurt]

I would give a 3rd vote to Ahimsa its really good, Dream Cruise link up also good on that wall.
The Cornish Granite I would add Grendel and The Ghost at Bosigran and Swift Flight of Fancy at Sennen. It's beyond me why Kafoozalem gets E3 its harder and left me a broken man.
Again quite mainstream but as well as Arms Race (alredy mentioned) Yellow Edge and Ladder of Desire are good Avon ticks.

[crimp]

Andy:  BUT Arm's Race and the one next to it should be on my list, I like that upper wall.

Them used to be brilliant, one of the best pitches at that grade in Britain. No idea whether it is still there or fallen down ... it's been a long time.

arms race is still standing, unlike a large part of wall round corner. Still gets 3 stars.

And don't forget it's traditional to take a bike up that slab with you and have a maniac cycle back down it.

[TobyD]

Andy:  BUT Arm's Race and the one next to it should be on my list, I like that upper wall.

if you don't mind bold, last slip is an essential Avon experience. I had a prejudice that it was all awful, but the mutilpitch things on unknown wall are actually bloody good: proper british adventurous feeling routes with a zero walk in, plenty of exposure interesting rock, and you top out into a park with an ice cream van, what could be better?

warpath is ok, but there are dozens of massively superior routes at gogarth of a similar difficulty... if you want a really, really easy e5 though, you're onto a winner ;-)

[Teaboy]

Castell Cidwm has a couple of routes you might be interested in, possibly not a short walk in mostly flt along a lake IIRC. In that area is Criag Cwm Pennant and
Exterminating Angel is as good as its reputation and the route next to it (description in 1st edition of North Wales Rock slightly wrong for this), again it's not a short walk (can't remember details sorry)  but not arduous.

Crafnant is another must visit but unfortunatly the walk in is steep towards the end. On the subject of routes that have too big a walk in I need to mention Hyndsight as it is the best route I've ever done in Wales and someone else might be interested. If you are in the area for Crimson Cruiser then Green Wall is also very good, I've not done Nosferatu but is said to be similar.

I'm surprised you mention Pagan as, short walk aside, this seems the opposite of what you have always aspired to if I remember rightly from old UKC threads.

Criag Arthur is good, long flat walk in then short steep bit to the crag.

Be sure to report back on anything good you find in Merionydd as I'd be keen to get over to the Rhinogs if I knew things were as good as the guide makes out.

I notice you haven't got Burnt Crag in your 'done' list, if that's not an oversight then you should get out there, again the walk in is pretty flat for a mountain area.

I was tempted by Elvis at Middle Scout in Langdale, it looks ok but the warm ups were wet on Saturday and they really do look like warm ups rather than anything you'd want to actually climb.

Gowther? Short walk, good routes, close to the motorway if you are on your way somewhere, beware Bloodhound, I backed off.

Is Gimmer too far? Equus might be the best route I've done in the Lakes

[duncan]

Andy:  BUT Arm's Race and the one next to it should be on my list, I like that upper wall.

Them used to be brilliant, one of the best pitches at that grade in Britain. No idea whether it is still there or fallen down ... it's been a long time.

Them is great and the Upper Wall is still very much alive. If you're feeling fit you could try The Ramp Challenge! (a fine piece by Charlie Woodburn). Over on the bigger bit just to the left Amanita Muscarina is one of the best routes of it's grade in England. It has had it's peg replaced recently but the area doesn't appear to have been opened up again after the rockfall further left again.  There is nothing currently on the RAD.

The major downside of Avon climbing is the traffic. The portway is closed occasionally on Sundays for descaling work and annually for the Bristol half-marathon (15th Sept this year). It's well worth timing a visit to coincide with this.

More later!

[SA Chris]

Swift Flight of Fancy at Sennen. It's beyond me why Kafoozalem gets E3 its harder and left me a broken man.

Was it Samson Arete we did at Bosigran? Seem to remember that being pretty good value.

There are a few omissions there from Bosigran; I remember Desolation Row being very good.

How about Dartmoor stuff? And if you aren't too keen on walk ins then Reecastle has plenty to go at.

[crimp]

Fiend, if your mate the pylon king is a forest dweller, other easy walk in quarries with good looking low to mid Es i would get him to show you around include:

staple edge - not been since it was developed but the horned one and nose job look impressive lines.

Shakemantle quarry can be fun. Summer bird closure mind.

Avoid tintern quarry. Not only is it a heart attack inducing fierce uphill walk out, it's just a horrible hole.

Hey, they're not quarries, but check out some forest sandstone outcrops while you're there, if you haven't already.

On the east of the severn bridge, for off piste easy walk in mid extreme quarries, you could do worse than check out:

fairy cave quarry
split rock quarry
portishead quarry

[IanP]

Andy:  BUT Arm's Race and the one next to it should be on my list, I like that upper wall.

warpath is ok, but there are dozens of massively superior routes at gogarth of a similar difficulty... if you want a really, really easy e5 though, you're onto a winner ;-)

Possibly, but I really enjoy Rhoscolyn and it has an excellent accessible set of of atmospheric single pitch routes in the E3 - E5 range.  If you haven't already done them The Sun, Centerfold, Electric Blue, Trail of Tears and Magellens Wall are all excellent.  Agree on the softness of Warpath, I did it the same day as Magellen's and found the latter significantly harder (though I think this has been upgraded).

[Teaboy]

By the way, a really excellent book/tick list for the type of route you are after is Paul Dearden's Classic Rock Climbs, I've always intended making an amalagmted tick list of all routes in my various picture books but I doubt I'll ever get round to it.

[Bonjoy]

Castell y Gwynt is good and fits your spec. New Dimensions is the obvious classic in your range.
Also on the trad limestone, what about Yorkshire Dales? Blue Scar and Gordale are both great in very different ways.

Peakwise, how about a minimal aid ascent of Buried Alive in Thors Cave? From the darkest recesses of the cave to the top of the hill in about six pitches. Done clean it’s 7c+ but would go at maybe 7a with five or six aid points. Loads of bolts but doesn’t feel anything like ‘normal’ sport climbing. Guaranteed big exhausting day out. Headtorches essential, stick clip useful for the start of pitch 1, sketchy E3 5b without the stick.

[Fiend]

Thanks for some good suggestions.

It's worth pointing out that I don't like 90% of UK inland limestone and would rather take part in a Human Centipede-style conga-line with a herd of highland cattle than climb on most of it. Some quarried stuff is an exception. Sorry Bonjoy, duncan and andy!

I'm also not a bit fan of Cornish granite, unlike the Lime I recognise it's quality but it just doesn't suit me, I prefer pillow lava .

I've also deliberately missed out the Peak, Yorkshire, and the mighty Lancs quarries as I'm familiar with them.

Okay...

Mastodon - possibly, I need to do the bigger St Gurnards routes too.

Yellow Edge & Amnita etc etc - good call I like that sort of cheese.

Warpath - fuck no I am not after a soft E5 nor any of that bollox, I just like the climbing around there. Did The Sun, Centrefold, Godzilla and that E2 on the right and just liked the vibe, I prefer Rhosy and South Stack rock to the main cliff.


Teaboy:
Crafnant - that Clogywn Y Ewyer crag should be back on my list, I did Oriole and need to do something to the right.
Done Green Wall, very nice.
Pagan - well I like South Stack.
Done Craig Arthur.
Rhinnogs - Carreg Y Merched, Y Grisau and the Rock Steady crag have some truly great stuff on.
Done Burnt Crag.
Done Gowther.
Done Gimmer pre-DVTs, too much these days.

Done Desolation Row, great route.

Done Split Rock and Portishead, recced Fairy Cave but not that inspired.

Actually Shadowlands should be on my list, even though it terrifies me and might be unjustifiable.

[Bonjoy]

It's worth pointing out that I don't like 90% of UK inland limestone and would rather take part in a Human Centipede-style conga-line with a herd of highland cattle than climb on most of it.

Yellow Edge & Amnita etc etc - good call I like that sort of cheese.

 

[Fiend]

Don't you wave your antennae at me like that! I like a fair bit of quarried lime, especially when it forms that weird crozzly pockety stuff like Avon Upper Wall (and Split Rock for that matter).

[crimp]

 

hmmm...

I would say lundy stuff, but might be too much like cornish granite for you.

How about something scary at henna or beeny cliffs?

Exmoor coast traverse. 30,000 foot of tidal terror. Never done it, but sounds a laugh.

Il duce at tintagel?

[Fiend]

Tintagel. Now we're talking. It does intrigue me, but may be too much?? I still want to know if the North Cliff stuff listed in the book is worth a visit, it sounds very good on paper??

[crimp]

And for a last roll of the local dice, i offer for you:

Uphill quarry and north quarry. Should suit if you like split rock, and haven't already done them.

I won't say Brean, too obvious and not so 'off piste'

I really would get the pylon king to show you spion kop central tower. It's pretty impressive for mid extremes.

[T_B]

The walk in to Esk Buttress might not be that uphill over Great Moss, but it's a long way.

I've done Amanita and Ladder of Desire/Them. I thought they were very adventurous/memorable. Went to Cheddar once and thought it was a bit grim - really noisy with loads of boy racers driving up and down the gorge.

Samurai Groove is well good. I though it was pretty scary.

Byzantium might have a long reach on it.

Clogwyn yr Eryr in the Crafnant has a lot of E2-E4 routes. Lush aspect, though hard/intimidating crag I thought.

[crimp]

And for a last roll of the local dice, i offer for you:

Uphill quarry and north quarry. Should suit if you like split rock, and haven't already done them.

I won't say Brean, too obvious and not so 'off piste'

I really would get the pylon king to show you spion kop central tower. It's pretty impressive for mid extremes.

only footage i can find, not the best, but may give you a feel of the central tower

[Fiend]

Okay will add that easier Love thing to the list, that does sound pretty interesting.

[ksjs]

Direct Hit is quite pokey, only seconded it. Byzantium is fantastic but considered E5 by quite a few (I only scratch the surface of E5 and I got up it so it can't be too tricky), whatever the grade the cams in the break felt less than amazing to me and you wouldn't want them to rip. Still, ultimately steady climbing on largely sound rock.

Not sure what else to say or recommend. If you get to do Crimson Cruiser, Nosferatu (given E4 in NWR but more like steep E3) and The Green Wall on the adjacent crag are superb (Craig Yr Wrysgan). If you haven't been to Clogwyn yr Eryr it's got some great stuff, I only did Astoroth and Phoenix on my single day there but both are superb - Astoroth is nails for E2 (done many way easier E3s) with a perplexing, smooth, flared corner at its end. Snowdrop (E4) is supposed to be amazing.

At the risk of suggesting stuff you've done or is too obvious:

The Sind E3, Yellow Walls - looks incredible and is utterly absorbing
Mask of Red Death E3, Rhoscolyn - unsung genius
Weasels Rip My Flesh E4, Pass - just beautiful, slightly committing climbing on perfect rock
Memory Lane E3, Pass - often overlooked but just a great route with good if spaced gear (the only slightly dodgy section is maybe the top arete where rock quality isn't as good and I think there's only 1 piece of gear which isn't amazing, if you've made it that far you'll be fine though)

Enjoy!

[Fultonius]

I take it you've either been to Sharpnose, or dismissed it for some reason? If not, it's fairly fiend friendly as the walk is fairly flat (unless my memory fails me, which it could do)

[crimp]

Gurnards head - behemoth, etc?

[chris j]

I take it you've either been to Sharpnose, or dismissed it for some reason?

Look under 'stuff wot I have done' in the OP...

[Fultonius]

    

[IanP]

f you haven't been to Clogwyn yr Eryr it's got some great stuff, I only did Astoroth and Phoenix on my single day there but both are superb - Astoroth is nails for E2 (done many way easier E3s) with a perplexing, smooth, flared corner at its end. Snowdrop (E4) is supposed to be amazing.

I've really enjoyed a few visits to Clogwyn yr Eyr, Phoenix is excellent, Clonus LH is good though a bit pokey at the start, Connies Crack into Snowdrop is a brilliant combination and 'good' value at E4, Astoroth is as you say 'interesting' and excellent, if you find it straightforward you can finish up Snowdrop LH which is a good E4 and particullarly interesting if you think you're on the 5b finish of Astoroth!  To finish off The Web on the further right is good route with a big feel.

If you can do the walk to Clogwyn yr Eyr then Scimitar Ridge might be worth considering Chreon is the warm up then the Roc-Nest Monster is really good followed by a set of classic E5s.

[Fiend]

Aye I seem to remember the walk-in to Eywr was more tedious and tiring rather than brutally prohibitive. Scimitar Ridge is sort of on the list too.

[thekettle]

Lakes:
 Raven Crag Threshwaite Cove if it's not too far?
Bit easier but Banzai Pipeline and No Holds Barred are both clean and 15 minutes from the road. Empire on Raven Thirlmere stays fairly clean if you traverse into the second pitch from the Totalitarian belay. I assume you've done the Lakes slate.

[Fiend]

Aye that thing on Raven Threshwaite looks good - got drizzled off there years ago, I'm not sure about the walk as it's mostly flat but the last bit was hideous.

Raven Thirlmere I didn't like the vibe of so much, it was all a bit horticultural around the crag.

Yup have done plenty of Lakes slate, ace stuff Orifice Fish should be on my list I guess but it's definitely my anti-style...

[bubbles]

There is half a dozen E1-E4 single pitch routes on the left hand side of Iron Crag in Thirlmere. Hiddenite is brilliant.

The walk is fairly similar to Raven Thresh... mostly flat with a steep slog up to the crag.

[duncan]

A few more SW ideas.

Tintagel: You have to do Il Duce if you are going to complete the north coast triple crown (along with America and Darkinbad). King’s Arete is also good.  First 20’ is a bit go-ey - 5c with no gear - but it’s fine after that. Standard E4 5c I thought. I’d like to do Vagabond some time. I don't know anyone who has done this. Neil Foster must have. Are you reading this Neil?

Lower Sharpnose: a bit conventional for Fiend, though he might enjoy the cows:


Doyden Point: worth a visit. Rock is more Gowla than Kellan’s pillow lava.  Lotus is just the sort of minor classic you might enjoy. There are a couple of other E1s to make the visit worthwhile. The wall to the right of Lotus, with Illegal Alien and Sick Rose, all looked a bit too ooo-errr for my liking.

Carn Gowla: I’ve not done much at other than the usuals. Crystal Voyager E1 is fun. I’d like to try Andromeda Strain some time, though this will now probably require someone young and foolish to lead me up it.

Bosigran: I used not to be so keen on Bosigran as it’s not a ‘real’ sea cliff and all a bit too popular. This was pure snobbery on my part. Xanadu is probably the best route I’ve done there. It’s got a lot packed into about 200’: steep corners, delicate faces, overhangs and a juicy little offwidth to finish. It about as hard as E2 gets down there and might sneak into E3 at a popular grit venue. Ghost is very good too.

Went to Cheddar once and thought it was a bit grim - really noisy with loads of boy racers driving up and down the gorge.

This seems to have got much worse in the last decade. On a recent visit I was ‘encouraged’ out of the way by a bunch of gentlemen lining their Subarus beneath High Rock for a photoshoot. The higher tiers are relatively peaceful but it is never going to be wilderness.

[Fiend]

Cheers Duncan.

Tintagel does appeal, I am not sure I am up to the more serious stuff though. Didn't T_B describe King's Arete as an utter horrorshow, or was that someone else?? I am rather intrigued by the North Cliff although haven't met a single person who has been there.

Sharpnose, yes done that including the cow photo tick: http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=82525

Doyden I've done. Also Kellan Head which I really rather liked, and would happily go back to.

I might have to get to grips with Cornish granite at some point, I'm not sure when though.

[SA Chris]

Long way to go for granite seacliffs........