[abarro81]

I never really understand dense (does anyone???) but I think he's making the same point I was about how you can easily 'manufacture' a particular sequence by knocking off certain holds and re-enforcing others.

[a dense loner]

Exactly, so you understood me perfectly. However I have just changed my stance cos I don't want to be seen having the same point of view as a tall guy who climbs with 2 knee pads

[Stubbs]

Of which video do you speak oh great commentator of our noble past time?

Ah the world is never black of white but is eternally shrouded in grey, lets see if we can put these points in the 'OK' or 'Not OK' category:

- Drilling bolts at sport crags within whatever guidelines may apply at that particular crag
- Knocking of loose holds on new routes
- Knocking of holds that aren't loose to make your new route harder
- stabilising a hold to make your new route climbable
- drilling/chipping holds on your new route.

[a dense loner]

Are you being serious? Ask me the same questions when you've finished school

[Lund]

Of which video do you speak oh great commentator of our noble past time?

Ah the world is never black of white but is eternally shrouded in grey, lets see if we can put these points in the 'OK' or 'Not OK' category:

- Drilling bolts at sport crags within whatever guidelines may apply at that particular crag

cool

- Knocking of loose holds on new routes

cool

- Knocking of holds that aren't loose to make your new route harder

gay

- stabilising a hold to make your new route climbable

climbable = gay; stabilising to make it safe = cool

- drilling/chipping holds on your new route.

gay

[Lund]

Are you being serious? Ask me the same questions when you've finished school

He's supposed to learn at school, grandad.

[a dense loner]

Don't really know what that means Lund.
Basically for all the ethically pure people it would be best if you didn't climb routes in most of Europe since a pretty big percentage is chipped drilled manufactured in some way, the same goes for quite a lot of the bouldering as well.
God help someone who warms up at cuvier

[Stubbs]

I wasn't asking for your global old-man-of-climbing opinion Dense, rather an insight into where your personal ethics on the topic may lie.  You've been climbing for a few millennia now, ever put up a new route?

[a dense loner]

Why would that change the thought process? What we've got is people saying chipped routes bad, if that's the case don't climb on a chipped route of any description. Easily sorted, just the amount of routes you can climb has gone downhill a bit. My opinion on it doesn't really matter, much like yours

[Jaspersharpe]

Lund I'm in no way politically correct but is the use of "gay" as a derogatory term really necessary?

It's 2012 and it seems a bit seventies offensive these days even to me, now then now then.

[Stubbs]

Dense any fule kno that boulder problems and routes were chipped in the past, there's plenty of examples in Font and closer to home in Yorkshire of lines that could have been hard 3* problems today being turned into a 3+ by a victorian. 

Blatant chipping seems to be happening less these days, and the conversation I was trying to have was about the difference in between cleaning and chipping a new route in the present.

[Lund]

Lund I'm in no way politically correct but is the use of "gay" as a derogatory term really necessary?

It's 2012 and it seems a bit seventies offensive these days even to me, now then now then.

If it's alright for Chris Moyles, it's ok for oh wait no you're right.  Heaven forbid that I get put in the same bucket as the church of England.  If I could edit it to change it I would.

[a dense loner]

Whereas the point I originally made was that Klem hasn't burst any chipping bubble and there are some older routes out there that are/look amazing and they have been chipped. Whatever people think its a fine line between knocking stuff off and manufacturing a route. Is filing holds down chipping? Some would say yes others no. Would I chip a route/boulder to make it better/doable? No, but there are more people than me out there

[ghisino]

Nowhere did I say that drilling a climb down to a certain level is a good thing because it lets more people enjoy it.

To be devil's advocate, how is your argument any different to saying that that route would be a cutting edge E10 and therefore we shouldn't bolt it so that lots of 7b climbers could enjoy it?

My original example (the CS) wouldn't have a brilliant hard boulder problem in the middle of it, it would have some horrible boning the life out of some scrittle.

nice counter argument.

seriously, the problem i have with the "let's chip unpleasant cruxes down" argument is that in many cases it has been stretched to fit personal definitions of what an unpleasant crux is.
Ie, i like the boulder problem on the route i've mentioned, but i've heard people who hate it!


to make a similar example concerning bolts, i'd refer to "semi-trad" multipitch granite routes in the alps.
The argument they are built around is that "bolts are placed on belays and unprotectable sections".
On some cases it means having an odd bolt on a 10 meter otherwise deadly slab, connecting  two obviously protectable features.
On other cases it means bolting cracks that would require two size 5 camalots, or a straight-up 6b slab pitch that can be avoided via easier cracks on its side...

It is much more clear to say that in a given area a given practice is acceptable- with many shades of grey - or it is not (no chipping, no bolts, etc)

[SA Chris]

to make a similar example concerning bolts, i'd refer to "semi-trad" multipitch granite routes in the alps.

Not just the alps; US, Canada, Australia, NZ, SA and I'm sure other places, but I've just never been to them.

[masonwoods101]

roughly relating to this topic i found a video and put it in the quality bouldering section. it shows a guy getting injured by a flake falling off whilst trying a new problem... the flake was loose anyway... should they have pulled it off as part of the cleaning? bet he wishes he had

[petejh]

I've got a perfect example of a route for someone on here to go and look at and tell me if it should be chipped or not - http://news.v12outdoor.com/2012/10/23/trophy-wives-of-the-astronauts-f6c-%E2%80%93-new-addition-to-craig-pen-gogarth/
I've half-finished it by sticking a lower-off in after 20 metres to give a 3 star 6c, because I couldn't bring myself to chip the one hold above which would have been required to have turned it into a truly brilliant 30m 7b+, with a brilliant crux 25 metres up an overhanging wall involving a sideways dyno from what would be a small drilled crimp to an out-of-reach jug.

As it stands now, the extension will involve some horrible nails tech 6c crimping on a crozzle, finger-shredding nastiness to give an unbalanced 1 star 7c/+ after 20 metres of great 6c climbing.

So, should I drill one small crimp to create what will  honestly be one of the best long 7b+'s around, or leave it as it is 

[Bonjoy]

A small bolt-on hold would be an honest and reversible solution of sorts I guess  . Would have to be a properly amazing route to be worth taking the shit you'd get for it though!

[slackline]

A small bolt-on hold would be an honest and reversible solution of sorts I guess  . Would have to be a properly amazing route to be worth taking the shit you'd get for it though!

Reminds me of Sexo débil (*** F6b+) at Sa Gubia on Mallorca which has bolt-on holds (didn't actually climb that route but remembering it stood out in the guide book when I read it because of the bolt-ons).

[petejh]

A small bolt-on hold would be an honest and reversible solution of sorts I guess  . Would have to be a properly amazing route to be worth taking the shit you'd get for it though!

Yeah for me there's two main concerns - firstly I'd get loads of shit from people, secondly I'd then have a reputation for chipping. Once you've done it once any new route thereafter might have people wondering if it's chipped.

In theory I don't have too much of a problem with chipped routes - as long as it's very good and as long as it's someone else taking the shit for it! In a perfect world it wouldn't happen...

[mrjonathanr]

So, should I drill one small crimp to create what will  honestly be one of the best long 7b+'s around, or leave it as it is 

Leave it.

[Stubbs]

I think the fact that this have even crossed your mind as an equipper and new router shows how easy it must be to get caught up in the process!

[Bonjoy]

A small bolt-on hold would be an honest and reversible solution of sorts I guess  . Would have to be a properly amazing route to be worth taking the shit you'd get for it though!

Yeah for me there's two main concerns - firstly I'd get loads of shit from people, secondly I'd then have a reputation for chipping. Once you've done it once any new route thereafter might have people wondering if it's chipped.

In theory I don't have too much of a problem with chipped routes - as long as it's very good and as long as it's someone else taking the shit for it! In a perfect world it wouldn't happen...

I’m not sure about that. Nobody permanently labelled Nic Sellars a chipper when he made a sika hold on Unjustified (aka Justified and Ancient), or that guy who put a bolt-on on Free Monster (aka Tea Monster). A chipper would covertly chip a hold and hope nobody noticed. Using a bolt-on is being upfront about the intention to manufacture a move. Chipping is rarely an upfront activity.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not argue that you do put bolt-on hold on the route. Just playing devils advocate.
What is notable about the two examples above is that both have now become classic routes after the removal of the added hold. Suggesting the original ascentionists were wrong in their appraisal of the virgin lines difficulty/quality, but also that no lasting damage was done to the routes.

[Steamboat Stello]

I would have to say leave it as well, some folk actually enjoy "6c crimping on crozzles". Bonjoys example of Free Monster is a bit different as I can't really understand why the aritificial hold was put where it was. That bit isn't even the crux and the move is a cool one which is not that hard in my opinion.  Anyone know the reason?

[petejh]

I would have to say leave it as well, some folk actually enjoy "6c crimping on crozzles". Bonjoys example of Free Monster is a bit different as I can't really understand why the aritificial hold was put where it was. That bit isn't even the crux and the move is a cool one which is not that hard in my opinion.  Anyone know the reason?

I probably will leave it but I am now thinking through the implications of drilling tiny 4mm holes and placing a little screw-on hold to see how good the move would be with the dyno! It's an interesting position to be in and I haven't come across it before when new routing as they've always just gone. When it's a blank unclimbed canvas and you have the potential to create something totally amazing (in your own mind), or leave it as 'less' amazing to climb but more in line with people's expectations (their dogma?).