[gme]

Just read a quote from Klem Loskot on 8a.nu where he says that "There are so many artificial holds on the hardest routes from the 90'ies, even Action Directe, Hubble and La rose etc. "
never heard this about AD before and am amazed about Hubble. Has this been said before.

[jwi]

I just assumed Klem was spouting nonsense?

[dave]

Doesn't say its chipped does it? There's a photo in TPOC showing Ben trowelling sika onto hubble, think its one of the pockets after the crux bit. There's also that pocket at the start that had sika in the back, could be referring to that?

[gme]

Artificial holds would indicate chipped/added not reinforced.
Also the context it is written would indicate the same.

[andy popp]

I think most people would read it as implying chipped/added. I also thought he was probably just talking bollocks.

[nai]

Artificial holds would indicate chipped/added not reinforced.

My immediate thought (re Hubble at least) was that it would be reinforced holds.  Maybe if you hadn't climbed at the Tor you might be likely to think otherwise.

AD is pockets isn't it, likely to have been plugged to stop seepage?

[abarro81]

Not read the context, but sika is sika - you glue on the holds you want to keep and pull off the other ones. Word is that this is exactly what Jerry did on Evo. Maybe you wouldn't call it 'manufactured' but it ain't 'natural'.

[Doylo]

Liquid Ambar has a shit load of sika on the first bit of steepness

[Bonjoy]

I thought the same as Dave. It is the only rational conclusion I think. Why would a random euro know about some otherwise utterly secret chipping on an iconic peak route, which appears to any close observer to be unchipped?
Different people have different ideas about what is acceptable/artificial. It's easy for climber in areas with super solid rock to accuse pragmatic climbers in areas of less solid rock (like the Peak) of manufacturing holds and in the purest sense of the words they are correct. I've reinforced holds on new peak sport routes. IMO doing otherwise on Peak limestone may be noble in some people's eyes but is stupid in practical terms and leads to routes which fall apart and become crap and unpleasant. What good would it have served the world for the easy bit of Hubble to have disintegrated?

[Ru]

Think he's just talking about use of Sika/cement. Hubble has sikad holds and Action Direct used to be an easier project that finished out right but the pockets were cemented up to force the direct route - hence the name.

[Andy Harris]

I visited  the Plombergstein near Salzburg about 10 years ago. It was a really impressive looking crag but I have never in my life seen such blatantly chipped/drilled/sikad/bolt on routes in my life. Really ugly routes entirely maufactured from top to bottom. No effort made to make the holds look remotely aesthetic. Shocking really and not comparable to anywhere else I've climbed. Beautiful spot in the forest with a lot of hard routes at the time. Not far from Hitlers winter retreat.

[Johnny Brown]

Action Direct used to be an easier project that finished out right but the pockets were cemented up to force the direct route

Christ that's sad. Props to Klem for bursting the bubble here, when such routes are held up as masterpieces its no wonder we have problems.

We went to a crag in Italy called 'Il Cubo' a couple of years back - same deal. Every route manufactured and fully equipped. Caff was dead psyched until he discovered the creator was taller than him...

PS isn't there starting foothold near Revelations/ Hubble that is one of those bolt hole scars?

[i_a_coops]

I have to admit, I don't think it's worth making a huge fuss about sika'd holds, the occasionaly manufactured/comfortised hold or what not. Take the Cider Soak, it has a hold made entirely out of sika, without which it would be a shit one move wonder at 8b+ or whatever, but as it is it's a brilliant 8a. If you're going to drill bolts for protection then why not make the routes as good climbs as possible?

Admittedly you can use the same line or reasoning to promote manufacturing every single hold on an otherwise blank bit of rock, which I think is equally silly to saying that objecting to sika and the odd manufactured hold implies objection to all bolting, cleaning of loose rock, gardening etc. on FAs.

I still think Action Direct is badass.

[ghisino]

anedoctically speaking, something like this can be found next to a hardcore crag in Presles (Grenoble)



"growing holes" (pockets)

[Stubbs]

t has a hold made entirely out of sika, without which it would be a shit one move wonder at 8b+ or whatever, but as it is it's a brilliant 8a.

This does seem to be a very weak argument - why not add two holds to make a 7c, or make the hold a bit bigger to make it a 7c+?

Unfortunately the shitty limestone we have over here seems to mean that new routers have to make a decision at some point as to what bits of rock they want to stay on and which bits are allowed to fall off - look at Mecca FFS!

I guess the other end of the spectrum is a crag like Buoux, where Ron describes developing new routes by hammering through thin areas of limestone with dissolution pockets behind to make new routes.

[i_a_coops]

t has a hold made entirely out of sika, without which it would be a shit one move wonder at 8b+ or whatever, but as it is it's a brilliant 8a.

This does seem to be a very weak argument - why not add two holds to make a 7c, or make the hold a bit bigger to make it a 7c+?

Forget the grade, it makes the climbing really continuous at about the same difficulty all the way, which in my opinion makes it a good route. I did a 2 move wonder route a few weeks ago which consisted of 2 hard moves straight out of a no hands rest, into a 6a+ finish. I would much rather climb the Cider Soak even if it does have a fake hold as in my opinion it's considerably more awesome.

[ghisino]

monzob sur mer in céuse is 6b/c until a brilliant three-move boulder problem, that makes it 7b.

Should we drill it so that 6c climbers can fully enjoy it?

[i_a_coops]

Nowhere did I say that drilling a climb down to a certain level is a good thing because it lets more people enjoy it.

To be devil's advocate, how is your argument any different to saying that that route would be a cutting edge E10 and therefore we shouldn't bolt it so that lots of 7b climbers could enjoy it?

My original example (the CS) wouldn't have a brilliant hard boulder problem in the middle of it, it would have some horrible boning the life out of some scrittle.

Admittedly you can use the same line or reasoning to promote manufacturing every single hold on an otherwise blank bit of rock, which I think is equally silly to saying that objecting to sika and the odd manufactured hold implies objection to all bolting, cleaning of loose rock, gardening etc. on FAs.

As I said there, I think taking either pro- or anti-chipping arguments to extremes is totally daft. I originally said that to try and stop people claiming that I am in favour of making holds all over the place, but it didn't seem to work.

http://www.rockandice.com/articles/how-to-climb/article/1096-making-the-grade

^ Interesting article.

[Jaspersharpe]

t has a hold made entirely out of sika, without which it would be a shit one move wonder at 8b+ or whatever, but as it is it's a brilliant 8a.

I guess the other end of the spectrum is a crag like Buoux, where Ron describes developing new routes by hammering through thin areas of limestone with dissolution pockets behind to make new routes.

A hell of a lot of the routes at Buoux have some form of manufatured holds on them. I must admit I was a bit disappointed when I looked in the crossthrough pockets of The Rose and saw they were completely drilled but at the time it was done, this was the norm and it was a cutting edge route so "minor imporvements" to holds to change something from impossible to possible were seen as being fine.

As Stubbs says though, the argument is pretty weak as where do you draw the line? Had those pockets not been improved who knows, The Rose might have been a 3* 8c+ instead, or it might have been impossible? I certainly found it more disappointing that a lot of the lower grade routes (which had only just been done when I did them) had also been significantly altered. Things like the totally stunning 7a Le Vieil Homme Est Amer might well have been a completely natural and equally stunning 7c without the blatantly drilled out pockets:



But if it's ok on 8b how can you say it's not ok on 7a? You can't.

[a dense loner]

Christ that's sad. Props to Klem for bursting the bubble here, when such routes are held up as masterpieces its no wonder we have problems.

What are you talking about props to Klem? I could have told you that 15 yrs ago. The really bad news is it is a masterpiece!

Have you seen footage of sharma knocking seven bells out of routes with a crowbar?

[abarro81]

Things like the totally stunning 7a Le Vieil Homme Est Amer might well have been a completely natural and equally stunning 7c without the blatantly drilled out pockets:

I remember getting confused by the number of drilled pockets on that thing as there were about twice as many as were useful/needed - it was almost like someone had drilled a bunch of bad ones so that the manufacturing didn't make it too easy to read 

[Paul B]

A hell of a lot of the routes at Buoux have some form of manufatured holds on them. I must admit I was a bit disappointed when I looked in the crossthrough pockets of The Rose and saw they were completely drilled but at the time it was done, this was the norm and it was a cutting edge route so "minor imporvements" to holds to change something from impossible to possible were seen as being fine.

referring to the Rose as Minor Improvements seems to be a 'tad' of an understatement. The entire sequence from start until after the cross has the mark of a drill-bit. Having said that (and probably to Johnnys disgust), it IS a masterpiece of manufacturing.

[Stubbs]

Have you seen footage of sharma knocking seven bells out of routes with a crowbar?

Knocking loose holds off new routes would seem to be a responsible thing to do.

[Jaspersharpe]

A hell of a lot of the routes at Buoux have some form of manufatured holds on them. I must admit I was a bit disappointed when I looked in the crossthrough pockets of The Rose and saw they were completely drilled but at the time it was done, this was the norm and it was a cutting edge route so "minor imporvements" to holds to change something from impossible to possible were seen as being fine.

referring to the Rose as Minor Improvements seems to be a 'tad' of an understatement. The entire sequence from start until after the cross has the mark of a drill-bit. Having said that (and probably to Johnnys disgust), it IS a masterpiece of manufacturing.

Yes hence the "". What I meant was that this was how such drilling was seen in those days.

[a dense loner]

He's just manufactured a route? Do you think he stops when anything remotely loose is off? Obviously I used sharma as an example cos everyone can see this on vid. People are drilling bolts into routes, this is manufacturing? The world does not revolve around grit trad, speaking of which where do you stand on quarried grit?
Of course there's a difference between drilling a mono and drilling a bolt, but is there? Obviously I'm speaking of the old days and not the bright new future where anything that can't be climbed right now will be climbed at some point