[gme]

Just read a quote from Klem Loskot on 8a.nu where he says that "There are so many artificial holds on the hardest routes from the 90'ies, even Action Directe, Hubble and La rose etc. "
never heard this about AD before and am amazed about Hubble. Has this been said before.

[jwi]

I just assumed Klem was spouting nonsense?

[dave]

Doesn't say its chipped does it? There's a photo in TPOC showing Ben trowelling sika onto hubble, think its one of the pockets after the crux bit. There's also that pocket at the start that had sika in the back, could be referring to that?

[gme]

Artificial holds would indicate chipped/added not reinforced.
Also the context it is written would indicate the same.

[andy popp]

I think most people would read it as implying chipped/added. I also thought he was probably just talking bollocks.

[nai]

Artificial holds would indicate chipped/added not reinforced.

My immediate thought (re Hubble at least) was that it would be reinforced holds.  Maybe if you hadn't climbed at the Tor you might be likely to think otherwise.

AD is pockets isn't it, likely to have been plugged to stop seepage?

[abarro81]

Not read the context, but sika is sika - you glue on the holds you want to keep and pull off the other ones. Word is that this is exactly what Jerry did on Evo. Maybe you wouldn't call it 'manufactured' but it ain't 'natural'.

[Doylo]

Liquid Ambar has a shit load of sika on the first bit of steepness

[Bonjoy]

I thought the same as Dave. It is the only rational conclusion I think. Why would a random euro know about some otherwise utterly secret chipping on an iconic peak route, which appears to any close observer to be unchipped?
Different people have different ideas about what is acceptable/artificial. It's easy for climber in areas with super solid rock to accuse pragmatic climbers in areas of less solid rock (like the Peak) of manufacturing holds and in the purest sense of the words they are correct. I've reinforced holds on new peak sport routes. IMO doing otherwise on Peak limestone may be noble in some people's eyes but is stupid in practical terms and leads to routes which fall apart and become crap and unpleasant. What good would it have served the world for the easy bit of Hubble to have disintegrated?

[Ru]

Think he's just talking about use of Sika/cement. Hubble has sikad holds and Action Direct used to be an easier project that finished out right but the pockets were cemented up to force the direct route - hence the name.

[Andy Harris]

I visited  the Plombergstein near Salzburg about 10 years ago. It was a really impressive looking crag but I have never in my life seen such blatantly chipped/drilled/sikad/bolt on routes in my life. Really ugly routes entirely maufactured from top to bottom. No effort made to make the holds look remotely aesthetic. Shocking really and not comparable to anywhere else I've climbed. Beautiful spot in the forest with a lot of hard routes at the time. Not far from Hitlers winter retreat.

[Johnny Brown]

Action Direct used to be an easier project that finished out right but the pockets were cemented up to force the direct route

Christ that's sad. Props to Klem for bursting the bubble here, when such routes are held up as masterpieces its no wonder we have problems.

We went to a crag in Italy called 'Il Cubo' a couple of years back - same deal. Every route manufactured and fully equipped. Caff was dead psyched until he discovered the creator was taller than him...

PS isn't there starting foothold near Revelations/ Hubble that is one of those bolt hole scars?

[i_a_coops]

I have to admit, I don't think it's worth making a huge fuss about sika'd holds, the occasionaly manufactured/comfortised hold or what not. Take the Cider Soak, it has a hold made entirely out of sika, without which it would be a shit one move wonder at 8b+ or whatever, but as it is it's a brilliant 8a. If you're going to drill bolts for protection then why not make the routes as good climbs as possible?

Admittedly you can use the same line or reasoning to promote manufacturing every single hold on an otherwise blank bit of rock, which I think is equally silly to saying that objecting to sika and the odd manufactured hold implies objection to all bolting, cleaning of loose rock, gardening etc. on FAs.

I still think Action Direct is badass.

[ghisino]

anedoctically speaking, something like this can be found next to a hardcore crag in Presles (Grenoble)



"growing holes" (pockets)

[Stubbs]

t has a hold made entirely out of sika, without which it would be a shit one move wonder at 8b+ or whatever, but as it is it's a brilliant 8a.

This does seem to be a very weak argument - why not add two holds to make a 7c, or make the hold a bit bigger to make it a 7c+?

Unfortunately the shitty limestone we have over here seems to mean that new routers have to make a decision at some point as to what bits of rock they want to stay on and which bits are allowed to fall off - look at Mecca FFS!

I guess the other end of the spectrum is a crag like Buoux, where Ron describes developing new routes by hammering through thin areas of limestone with dissolution pockets behind to make new routes.

[i_a_coops]

t has a hold made entirely out of sika, without which it would be a shit one move wonder at 8b+ or whatever, but as it is it's a brilliant 8a.

This does seem to be a very weak argument - why not add two holds to make a 7c, or make the hold a bit bigger to make it a 7c+?

Forget the grade, it makes the climbing really continuous at about the same difficulty all the way, which in my opinion makes it a good route. I did a 2 move wonder route a few weeks ago which consisted of 2 hard moves straight out of a no hands rest, into a 6a+ finish. I would much rather climb the Cider Soak even if it does have a fake hold as in my opinion it's considerably more awesome.

[ghisino]

monzob sur mer in céuse is 6b/c until a brilliant three-move boulder problem, that makes it 7b.

Should we drill it so that 6c climbers can fully enjoy it?

[i_a_coops]

Nowhere did I say that drilling a climb down to a certain level is a good thing because it lets more people enjoy it.

To be devil's advocate, how is your argument any different to saying that that route would be a cutting edge E10 and therefore we shouldn't bolt it so that lots of 7b climbers could enjoy it?

My original example (the CS) wouldn't have a brilliant hard boulder problem in the middle of it, it would have some horrible boning the life out of some scrittle.

Admittedly you can use the same line or reasoning to promote manufacturing every single hold on an otherwise blank bit of rock, which I think is equally silly to saying that objecting to sika and the odd manufactured hold implies objection to all bolting, cleaning of loose rock, gardening etc. on FAs.

As I said there, I think taking either pro- or anti-chipping arguments to extremes is totally daft. I originally said that to try and stop people claiming that I am in favour of making holds all over the place, but it didn't seem to work.

http://www.rockandice.com/articles/how-to-climb/article/1096-making-the-grade

^ Interesting article.

[Jaspersharpe]

t has a hold made entirely out of sika, without which it would be a shit one move wonder at 8b+ or whatever, but as it is it's a brilliant 8a.

I guess the other end of the spectrum is a crag like Buoux, where Ron describes developing new routes by hammering through thin areas of limestone with dissolution pockets behind to make new routes.

A hell of a lot of the routes at Buoux have some form of manufatured holds on them. I must admit I was a bit disappointed when I looked in the crossthrough pockets of The Rose and saw they were completely drilled but at the time it was done, this was the norm and it was a cutting edge route so "minor imporvements" to holds to change something from impossible to possible were seen as being fine.

As Stubbs says though, the argument is pretty weak as where do you draw the line? Had those pockets not been improved who knows, The Rose might have been a 3* 8c+ instead, or it might have been impossible? I certainly found it more disappointing that a lot of the lower grade routes (which had only just been done when I did them) had also been significantly altered. Things like the totally stunning 7a Le Vieil Homme Est Amer might well have been a completely natural and equally stunning 7c without the blatantly drilled out pockets:



But if it's ok on 8b how can you say it's not ok on 7a? You can't.

[a dense loner]

Christ that's sad. Props to Klem for bursting the bubble here, when such routes are held up as masterpieces its no wonder we have problems.

What are you talking about props to Klem? I could have told you that 15 yrs ago. The really bad news is it is a masterpiece!

Have you seen footage of sharma knocking seven bells out of routes with a crowbar?

[abarro81]

Things like the totally stunning 7a Le Vieil Homme Est Amer might well have been a completely natural and equally stunning 7c without the blatantly drilled out pockets:

I remember getting confused by the number of drilled pockets on that thing as there were about twice as many as were useful/needed - it was almost like someone had drilled a bunch of bad ones so that the manufacturing didn't make it too easy to read 

[Paul B]

A hell of a lot of the routes at Buoux have some form of manufatured holds on them. I must admit I was a bit disappointed when I looked in the crossthrough pockets of The Rose and saw they were completely drilled but at the time it was done, this was the norm and it was a cutting edge route so "minor imporvements" to holds to change something from impossible to possible were seen as being fine.

referring to the Rose as Minor Improvements seems to be a 'tad' of an understatement. The entire sequence from start until after the cross has the mark of a drill-bit. Having said that (and probably to Johnnys disgust), it IS a masterpiece of manufacturing.

[Stubbs]

Have you seen footage of sharma knocking seven bells out of routes with a crowbar?

Knocking loose holds off new routes would seem to be a responsible thing to do.

[Jaspersharpe]

A hell of a lot of the routes at Buoux have some form of manufatured holds on them. I must admit I was a bit disappointed when I looked in the crossthrough pockets of The Rose and saw they were completely drilled but at the time it was done, this was the norm and it was a cutting edge route so "minor imporvements" to holds to change something from impossible to possible were seen as being fine.

referring to the Rose as Minor Improvements seems to be a 'tad' of an understatement. The entire sequence from start until after the cross has the mark of a drill-bit. Having said that (and probably to Johnnys disgust), it IS a masterpiece of manufacturing.

Yes hence the "". What I meant was that this was how such drilling was seen in those days.

[a dense loner]

He's just manufactured a route? Do you think he stops when anything remotely loose is off? Obviously I used sharma as an example cos everyone can see this on vid. People are drilling bolts into routes, this is manufacturing? The world does not revolve around grit trad, speaking of which where do you stand on quarried grit?
Of course there's a difference between drilling a mono and drilling a bolt, but is there? Obviously I'm speaking of the old days and not the bright new future where anything that can't be climbed right now will be climbed at some point

[abarro81]

I never really understand dense (does anyone???) but I think he's making the same point I was about how you can easily 'manufacture' a particular sequence by knocking off certain holds and re-enforcing others.

[a dense loner]

Exactly, so you understood me perfectly. However I have just changed my stance cos I don't want to be seen having the same point of view as a tall guy who climbs with 2 knee pads

[Stubbs]

Of which video do you speak oh great commentator of our noble past time?

Ah the world is never black of white but is eternally shrouded in grey, lets see if we can put these points in the 'OK' or 'Not OK' category:

- Drilling bolts at sport crags within whatever guidelines may apply at that particular crag
- Knocking of loose holds on new routes
- Knocking of holds that aren't loose to make your new route harder
- stabilising a hold to make your new route climbable
- drilling/chipping holds on your new route.

[a dense loner]

Are you being serious? Ask me the same questions when you've finished school

[Lund]

Of which video do you speak oh great commentator of our noble past time?

Ah the world is never black of white but is eternally shrouded in grey, lets see if we can put these points in the 'OK' or 'Not OK' category:

- Drilling bolts at sport crags within whatever guidelines may apply at that particular crag

cool

- Knocking of loose holds on new routes

cool

- Knocking of holds that aren't loose to make your new route harder

gay

- stabilising a hold to make your new route climbable

climbable = gay; stabilising to make it safe = cool

- drilling/chipping holds on your new route.

gay

[Lund]

Are you being serious? Ask me the same questions when you've finished school

He's supposed to learn at school, grandad.

[a dense loner]

Don't really know what that means Lund.
Basically for all the ethically pure people it would be best if you didn't climb routes in most of Europe since a pretty big percentage is chipped drilled manufactured in some way, the same goes for quite a lot of the bouldering as well.
God help someone who warms up at cuvier

[Stubbs]

I wasn't asking for your global old-man-of-climbing opinion Dense, rather an insight into where your personal ethics on the topic may lie.  You've been climbing for a few millennia now, ever put up a new route?

[a dense loner]

Why would that change the thought process? What we've got is people saying chipped routes bad, if that's the case don't climb on a chipped route of any description. Easily sorted, just the amount of routes you can climb has gone downhill a bit. My opinion on it doesn't really matter, much like yours

[Jaspersharpe]

Lund I'm in no way politically correct but is the use of "gay" as a derogatory term really necessary?

It's 2012 and it seems a bit seventies offensive these days even to me, now then now then.

[Stubbs]

Dense any fule kno that boulder problems and routes were chipped in the past, there's plenty of examples in Font and closer to home in Yorkshire of lines that could have been hard 3* problems today being turned into a 3+ by a victorian. 

Blatant chipping seems to be happening less these days, and the conversation I was trying to have was about the difference in between cleaning and chipping a new route in the present.

[Lund]

Lund I'm in no way politically correct but is the use of "gay" as a derogatory term really necessary?

It's 2012 and it seems a bit seventies offensive these days even to me, now then now then.

If it's alright for Chris Moyles, it's ok for oh wait no you're right.  Heaven forbid that I get put in the same bucket as the church of England.  If I could edit it to change it I would.

[a dense loner]

Whereas the point I originally made was that Klem hasn't burst any chipping bubble and there are some older routes out there that are/look amazing and they have been chipped. Whatever people think its a fine line between knocking stuff off and manufacturing a route. Is filing holds down chipping? Some would say yes others no. Would I chip a route/boulder to make it better/doable? No, but there are more people than me out there

[ghisino]

Nowhere did I say that drilling a climb down to a certain level is a good thing because it lets more people enjoy it.

To be devil's advocate, how is your argument any different to saying that that route would be a cutting edge E10 and therefore we shouldn't bolt it so that lots of 7b climbers could enjoy it?

My original example (the CS) wouldn't have a brilliant hard boulder problem in the middle of it, it would have some horrible boning the life out of some scrittle.

nice counter argument.

seriously, the problem i have with the "let's chip unpleasant cruxes down" argument is that in many cases it has been stretched to fit personal definitions of what an unpleasant crux is.
Ie, i like the boulder problem on the route i've mentioned, but i've heard people who hate it!


to make a similar example concerning bolts, i'd refer to "semi-trad" multipitch granite routes in the alps.
The argument they are built around is that "bolts are placed on belays and unprotectable sections".
On some cases it means having an odd bolt on a 10 meter otherwise deadly slab, connecting  two obviously protectable features.
On other cases it means bolting cracks that would require two size 5 camalots, or a straight-up 6b slab pitch that can be avoided via easier cracks on its side...

It is much more clear to say that in a given area a given practice is acceptable- with many shades of grey - or it is not (no chipping, no bolts, etc)

[SA Chris]

to make a similar example concerning bolts, i'd refer to "semi-trad" multipitch granite routes in the alps.

Not just the alps; US, Canada, Australia, NZ, SA and I'm sure other places, but I've just never been to them.

[masonwoods101]

roughly relating to this topic i found a video and put it in the quality bouldering section. it shows a guy getting injured by a flake falling off whilst trying a new problem... the flake was loose anyway... should they have pulled it off as part of the cleaning? bet he wishes he had

[petejh]

I've got a perfect example of a route for someone on here to go and look at and tell me if it should be chipped or not - http://news.v12outdoor.com/2012/10/23/trophy-wives-of-the-astronauts-f6c-%E2%80%93-new-addition-to-craig-pen-gogarth/
I've half-finished it by sticking a lower-off in after 20 metres to give a 3 star 6c, because I couldn't bring myself to chip the one hold above which would have been required to have turned it into a truly brilliant 30m 7b+, with a brilliant crux 25 metres up an overhanging wall involving a sideways dyno from what would be a small drilled crimp to an out-of-reach jug.

As it stands now, the extension will involve some horrible nails tech 6c crimping on a crozzle, finger-shredding nastiness to give an unbalanced 1 star 7c/+ after 20 metres of great 6c climbing.

So, should I drill one small crimp to create what will  honestly be one of the best long 7b+'s around, or leave it as it is 

[Bonjoy]

A small bolt-on hold would be an honest and reversible solution of sorts I guess  . Would have to be a properly amazing route to be worth taking the shit you'd get for it though!

[slackline]

A small bolt-on hold would be an honest and reversible solution of sorts I guess  . Would have to be a properly amazing route to be worth taking the shit you'd get for it though!

Reminds me of Sexo débil (*** F6b+) at Sa Gubia on Mallorca which has bolt-on holds (didn't actually climb that route but remembering it stood out in the guide book when I read it because of the bolt-ons).

[petejh]

A small bolt-on hold would be an honest and reversible solution of sorts I guess  . Would have to be a properly amazing route to be worth taking the shit you'd get for it though!

Yeah for me there's two main concerns - firstly I'd get loads of shit from people, secondly I'd then have a reputation for chipping. Once you've done it once any new route thereafter might have people wondering if it's chipped.

In theory I don't have too much of a problem with chipped routes - as long as it's very good and as long as it's someone else taking the shit for it! In a perfect world it wouldn't happen...

[mrjonathanr]

So, should I drill one small crimp to create what will  honestly be one of the best long 7b+'s around, or leave it as it is 

Leave it.

[Stubbs]

I think the fact that this have even crossed your mind as an equipper and new router shows how easy it must be to get caught up in the process!

[Bonjoy]

A small bolt-on hold would be an honest and reversible solution of sorts I guess  . Would have to be a properly amazing route to be worth taking the shit you'd get for it though!

Yeah for me there's two main concerns - firstly I'd get loads of shit from people, secondly I'd then have a reputation for chipping. Once you've done it once any new route thereafter might have people wondering if it's chipped.

In theory I don't have too much of a problem with chipped routes - as long as it's very good and as long as it's someone else taking the shit for it! In a perfect world it wouldn't happen...

I’m not sure about that. Nobody permanently labelled Nic Sellars a chipper when he made a sika hold on Unjustified (aka Justified and Ancient), or that guy who put a bolt-on on Free Monster (aka Tea Monster). A chipper would covertly chip a hold and hope nobody noticed. Using a bolt-on is being upfront about the intention to manufacture a move. Chipping is rarely an upfront activity.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not argue that you do put bolt-on hold on the route. Just playing devils advocate.
What is notable about the two examples above is that both have now become classic routes after the removal of the added hold. Suggesting the original ascentionists were wrong in their appraisal of the virgin lines difficulty/quality, but also that no lasting damage was done to the routes.

[Steamboat Stello]

I would have to say leave it as well, some folk actually enjoy "6c crimping on crozzles". Bonjoys example of Free Monster is a bit different as I can't really understand why the aritificial hold was put where it was. That bit isn't even the crux and the move is a cool one which is not that hard in my opinion.  Anyone know the reason?

[petejh]

I would have to say leave it as well, some folk actually enjoy "6c crimping on crozzles". Bonjoys example of Free Monster is a bit different as I can't really understand why the aritificial hold was put where it was. That bit isn't even the crux and the move is a cool one which is not that hard in my opinion.  Anyone know the reason?

I probably will leave it but I am now thinking through the implications of drilling tiny 4mm holes and placing a little screw-on hold to see how good the move would be with the dyno! It's an interesting position to be in and I haven't come across it before when new routing as they've always just gone. When it's a blank unclimbed canvas and you have the potential to create something totally amazing (in your own mind), or leave it as 'less' amazing to climb but more in line with people's expectations (their dogma?).

[Paul B]

are there no kneebars to be had? 

[petejh]

I've  been waiting for that   

[Jaspersharpe]

As long as you don't blowtorch it I reckon you're ok.