[andy popp]

I was sure I'd crossed the bridge on my grief etc and I should be "normal". And, this isn't grief related

I hope this doesn't come across as contrarian, but I can't help wondering why or how you're sure this isn't at least in part grief related? Very obviously there are a number of much more immediate stressors in your life right now, and its probably right to focus on them, but even as the years pass grief can remain as part, however submerged, of how we react to stress. I think a lot of expectations around "normal" as it relates to grief can be very constrictive or even counter productive.

[tomtom]

AndyF - (it sounds trite but..) well done for posting. Matt - sound like a. lot. of stuff going on...

I don't think there is a normal for grief - or a right or wrong 'way' or 'amount' to grieve. Everyone seems to have their own way, time and pace... and (IMHO) there is nothing wrong with that...

[Oldmanmatt]

Yeah, just re-read my own drivel... "This isn't Grief related, I just can't cope like I used to". And why is that Sherlock? Because you can't shrug it off like you used to, you plonker.
I had reached a point where I was struggling to talk to people or cope in any social environment. In other words, depression had crept up on me again and despite all these years of dodging the fucker; I didn't spot it.
For whatever reason, reading Andy's post, Fluoxetine kicking in, sorting out some of the problems, having a crisis zero sleep night and then collapsing into 10 hours straight undisturbed slumber the next night or just plain realising what was happening; I woke up on Sunday in a different place and it seems to be lasting. Actually managing to get things done.

Andy, let me know how you find the CBT, if you don't mind. I've always been cynical of "counselling " in general. Our whole tribe trooped off for a "Grief retreat" last year, over a long weekend, with a very well meaning charity. The kids seemed to benefit from throwing clay at walls and meeting fellow bereaved children etc, but Polly and I just felt out of place and slightly patronised (not by all of the counsellors, just a few). So I'd like to know how a professional approach differs. My experience in the final year of Naval service was patchy. I think PTSD was still considered a "Syndrome " and not real then, the Psychologists were quite good (who I saw weekly) but the Psychiatrist I saw once a month was a complete wanker (a view shared by the entire cohort in our monthly "group therapy" sessions).

[Andy F]

Matt, of course I'll let you know how the CBT works for me. Hope you get yourself sorted.

[Monolith]

Really good to see folk talking to one another here and helping each other out. Sending psyche to all of you.

I struggled with a bout of anxiety in my teens/20s  and at peak anxiety I was on a heart rate monitor for three days hallucinating in hospital. That was in part due to a vodka/Dr Pepper binge whilst playing scrolling Japanese shoot em ups for 10 hours. Bit of a deadly storm but it's funny looking back. Should really have written to let Dr Pepper know the answer to their question "what's the worst that could happen?".

Irrespective of whether you're climbing or otherwise Andy F, keep your body and mind honed with an activity. In truth I miss climbing massively but the cycle of back pain it brings me is just plain frustrating and switching to another sport that I can throw myself in to has helped me massively. Given your propensity for hard training, I think it's important to supplant this with another focus.

[petejh]

Andy, let me know how you find the CBT, if you don't mind. I've always been cynical of "counselling " in general. Our whole tribe trooped off for a "Grief retreat" last year, over a long weekend, with a very well meaning charity. The kids seemed to benefit from throwing clay at walls and meeting fellow bereaved children etc, but Polly and I just felt out of place and slightly patronised (not by all of the counsellors, just a few). So I'd like to know how a professional approach differs. My experience in the final year of Naval service was patchy. I think PTSD was still considered a "Syndrome " and not real then, the Psychologists were quite good (who I saw weekly) but the Psychiatrist I saw once a month was a complete wanker (a view shared by the entire cohort in our monthly "group therapy" sessions).

Hi Matt, good to hear you're feeling a bit better than you were.
Regards military psychological counselling service - it's changed a lot since you and I were in the forces. At least in my NHS area (Wales) the service is very well set up and staffed with well-trained veteran therapists used to dealing with a lot of issues from Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as older stuff from n.Ireland and Bosnia etc. The issue doesn't need to be related to military service though.

My experience: I buried an event that happened in Bosnia in 1995 for twenty years in a locked box at the bottom of an ocean. I didn't tell a single soul even partners. It finally hit home hard in November 2015, the trigger is unimportant. I was severely floored and realised I needed to seek help and to tell someone about what had happened in Bosnia.
In Wales (don't know if it differs from elsewhere) you get priority service if you're ex-military and request mental health services. I requested via my GP to see a veteran therapist but you can just go direct without the GP and you'll be able to see them. I think it took 2 weeks until the initial meeting then another few weeks to arrange a series of counselling sessions.
I would have run a mile at the thought of a 'grief retreat'. I'm pretty cynical about anything I consider hokey. Suppose everyone's different. The NHS Wales Veterans service is one-to-one sessions with a psychologist trained in counselling. After 4 one-to-one counselling sessions I was done. It did me a ton of good and 'got it out of my system'. I'd recommend seeing a VT for anyone suffering mental health difficulties.


The NHS Wales Veterans  service is here: http://www.veteranswales.co.uk/
The English NHS veterans service contacts are here: http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Militaryhealthcare/veterans-families-reservists/Documents/TIL%20veterans%20mental%20health%20services%20contacts%20for%20the%20web.pdf

[Oldmanmatt]

Thanks Pete. [emoji106]

[Andy F]

Really good to see folk talking to one another here and helping each other out. Sending psyche to all of you.

I struggled with a bout of anxiety in my teens/20s  and at peak anxiety I was on a heart rate monitor for three days hallucinating in hospital. That was in part due to a vodka/Dr Pepper binge whilst playing scrolling Japanese shoot em ups for 10 hours. Bit of a deadly storm but it's funny looking back. Should really have written to let Dr Pepper know the answer to their question "what's the worst that could happen?".

Irrespective of whether you're climbing or otherwise Andy F, keep your body and mind honed with an activity. In truth I miss climbing massively but the cycle of back pain it brings me is just plain frustrating and switching to another sport that I can throw myself in to has helped me massively. Given your propensity for hard training, I think it's important to supplant this with another focus.

Your very right about this thread helping out Tom, its helpful and cathartic at the same time.

Since the diagnosis I've looked back at my periods of depression in a new light. I know I've said and done things that weren't the real me, but the depressed me. I've disclosed to work and they have helped greatly, putting things in place to support and hopefully overcome this problem.

Not climbing is difficult and I know it would help if I got out, but that is a bridge to cross at a later date.

Again, thanks all for the support.

[Hoseyb]

Thinking of you Andy. Those of you ( like yourself)  who know me a little, may have cottoned on that I'm not always 100% mentally.  But knowing that you're not alone is the main thing for me. That, and having friends and family that accept me as I am, warts and all. Slasher was my friend despite the piss taking, and, well, piss. And I'm happy to still be a friend.

[SA Chris]

Not climbing is difficult and I know it would help if I got out, but that is a bridge to cross at a later date.

Doesn't have to be climbing Andy. Anything helps. I went off the rails a bit when I  couldn't climb 2 years ago due to tennis elbow. When I did my thumb in last year and was out again, I decided to find other outlets and started running and cycling. Anything to get you out the house and accelerate the heartrate a bit helps otherwise its a downward spiral.

[SA Chris]

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/05/170525161321.htm

[petejh]

[open goal]They've clearly never been to Parisella's or they'd hesitate recommending bouldering as treatment for depression.. cause of perhaps?[/open goal]

[Andy F]

Thinking of you Andy. Those of you ( like yourself)  who know me a little, may have cottoned on that I'm not always 100% mentally.  But knowing that you're not alone is the main thing for me. That, and having friends and family that accept me as I am, warts and all. Slasher was my friend despite the piss taking, and, well, piss. And I'm happy to still be a friend.

I thought I'd give you an update. I've had some very productive sessions and the meds are working well. The black dog is still there, but distant and vague.. I look back on my Facebook posts as a different person. I am a climber. I always will be. Life is hard. Fight to the end. Never give up.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Andy, I hope you're doing OK. Depression can be/is such an isolating experience. I remember, when I moved to Sheffield, the only thing that seemed to matter - re climbing - was that you loved it (most of the time). You knew the score, and so did everyone else. It was the most profound feeling of being accepted into a community. I'm not sure that things are quite the same now, but we can all help to make sure that the most important part of being a climber, remains being part of a community where everyone else knows why you love what you do. I hope we all remember that people don't disappear when they aren't actively out there climbing - or posting here. I've found just being at the crag, hanging out, an important thing to try to do, regardless of whether you get on the rock. You don't have to be pulling down, to be part of the family    Good posts, and great thread.

[Falling Down]

Pleased to hear your news Andy.  It's good you're doing some therapy along with the meds.. it all helps.

[tk421a]

Thought this might be interesting to some:

https://www.outsideonline.com/2234616/life-after-near-death-cory-richards

[Falling Down]

Great article - thanks for sharing it.

[SA Chris]

http://knowrecall.com/10-photos-prove-depression-no-face/

Look out for yourselves, and each other.

[SamT]

 

 
 
Def coming into that time of the year.. I can't see the Black Dog yet, but can hear something barking.. off in the distance.

Keep fighting..  keep dancing.. 

[kelvin]

Andy, let me know how you find the CBT, if you don't mind. I've always been cynical of "counselling " in general. Our whole tribe trooped off for a "Grief retreat" last year, over a long weekend, with a very well meaning charity. The kids seemed to benefit from throwing clay at walls and meeting fellow bereaved children etc, but Polly and I just felt out of place and slightly patronised (not by all of the counsellors, just a few). So I'd like to know how a professional approach differs. My experience in the final year of Naval service was patchy. I think PTSD was still considered a "Syndrome " and not real then, the Psychologists were quite good (who I saw weekly) but the Psychiatrist I saw once a month was a complete wanker (a view shared by the entire cohort in our monthly "group therapy" sessions).

Hi Matt, good to hear you're feeling a bit better than you were.
Regards military psychological counselling service - it's changed a lot since you and I were in the forces. At least in my NHS area (Wales) the service is very well set up and staffed with well-trained veteran therapists used to dealing with a lot of issues from Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as older stuff from n.Ireland and Bosnia etc. The issue doesn't need to be related to military service though.

My experience: I buried an event that happened in Bosnia in 1995 for twenty years in a locked box at the bottom of an ocean. I didn't tell a single soul even partners. It finally hit home hard in November 2015, the trigger is unimportant. I was severely floored and realised I needed to seek help and to tell someone about what had happened in Bosnia.
In Wales (don't know if it differs from elsewhere) you get priority service if you're ex-military and request mental health services. I requested via my GP to see a veteran therapist but you can just go direct without the GP and you'll be able to see them. I think it took 2 weeks until the initial meeting then another few weeks to arrange a series of counselling sessions.
I would have run a mile at the thought of a 'grief retreat'. I'm pretty cynical about anything I consider hokey. Suppose everyone's different. The NHS Wales Veterans service is one-to-one sessions with a psychologist trained in counselling. After 4 one-to-one counselling sessions I was done. It did me a ton of good and 'got it out of my system'. I'd recommend seeing a VT for anyone suffering mental health difficulties.


The NHS Wales Veterans  service is here: http://www.veteranswales.co.uk/
The English NHS veterans service contacts are here: http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Militaryhealthcare/veterans-families-reservists/Documents/TIL%20veterans%20mental%20health%20services%20contacts%20for%20the%20web.pdf

Just to echo what Pete has said - I was diagnosed with PTSD in 2009. Sitting in the waiting area with before the first session was difficult, I'd worked often in mental health hospitals as a decorator but being a patient/client felt overwhelming for a few minutes sat there, plus I'm generally suspicious of what I view as mumbo jumbo and it seemed to me that counseling came under that. I only had two sessions, that was all I needed and it turned everything around. I can only say how astonished I was at the difference it made to me at that time, truly wondrous.
Apart from an accident this year triggering the nightmares again for a week or so, I've been okay. Nice to hear it worked for someone else too.

[lagerstarfish]

I'm 7 weeks in to the 9 week course of Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy which Sheffield IAPT offer to people who want to increase their chances of avoiding a recurrence of depression

the course itself has been very well run, the homework has taken some serious determination to get through (an hour a day for 8 weeks!), but I've learned a whole bunch of useful stuff about being able to observe my mind's workings and see them as just that rather than as FACTS

the basic principle is to start on long meditations and then be able to apply what you learn to shorter exercises for regular use in everyday life

there are a lot of resources around - search for MBCT. Bangor uni have a fine collection of audio tracks to download for free

I don't think I would have persisted to the point where I am learning really useful stuff if I hadn't had the guided sessions and discussions

I feel pretty optimistic about this as a tool for keeping me well

[Andy F]

Largers, I'm very glad to hear the therapy is working for you. Keep it up. My own CBT helps me see the world and my position in it in a much more positive way and I urge anyone feeling down to try it.

To anyone who is struggling, keep fighting. You can keep the black dog away from the gates.

[Oldmanmatt]

Largers, I'm very glad to hear the therapy is working for you. Keep it up. My own CBT helps me see the world and my position in it in a much more positive way and I urge anyone feeling down to try it.

To anyone who is struggling, keep fighting. You can keep the black dog away from the gates.

I'm actually just quite pleased to now be sure that you were not the Andy F that died in Yosemite.
I was reasonably sure after I found out the age of the poor bloke, but it was still too embarrassing to ask...

[Andy F]

Largers, I'm very glad to hear the therapy is working for you. Keep it up. My own CBT helps me see the world and my position in it in a much more positive way and I urge anyone feeling down to try it.

To anyone who is struggling, keep fighting. You can keep the black dog away from the gates.

I'm actually just quite pleased to now be sure that you were not the Andy F that died in Yosemite.
I was reasonably sure after I found out the age of the poor bloke, but it was still too embarrassing to ask...

That makes two of us, but it must be terrible for that lads family 

[SamT]

    Not sure its politic to use the laughing emotithing in this thread but This....

I'm actually just quite pleased to now be sure that you were not the Andy F that died in Yosemite.

(I actually looked at Andy F's recent posts earlier today to see if he'd been talking about a forthcoming trip to the valley).

Glad its not you Andy, but still sorry for someone else and their loved ones..

sorry #offtopic