[Bonjoy]

Darius, and Lyme Crime even more so, have had shit bolts for the last >20 years, it is an assumption included in the grade AFAIK. Both have other gear nearby and would , I think, still remain the same grade and popular if/when the bolts disappear for whatever reason.

[Johnny Brown]

<indignant>  I’m pretty sure I, sorry ‘folk’, never claimed vegetation was a bigger issue than looseness either. No wonder these debates end in polarised indecision! </indignant>

That's where we started yes, but it the debate immediately fanned out into a general 'its all going to grass' moan. The irony of that debate was that when we got there, and it wasn't long after, the bolts had already gone in. Not perhaps every one you wanted, but most - and pegs had been removed -  all very confusing when trying to do a trad climb from the book. But I think the conclusion stands - ie that the crag is unpopular due to other factors than either vegetation or a lack of bolts.

One of the examples which was raised at the meeting was the proposed replacement of the ‘bolts’ on Darius and Lyme Crime. As I said at the time, this I think is going too far.

Agreed. If it was possible to get the original bolt out and put a new one in the old hole, I wouldn't have too much beef. But I'd be very much opposed to any new holes being drilled on the main section of High Tor. I don't like the lower off on the Original route/ Supersonic ledge either.

The justification for such bolts seems to get more tenuous every year. I'd have more respect for folk if they'd just say 'I think High Tor would be better as a sport crag', and we could argue the merits of that instead of these daft stories of decline.

[Bonjoy]

It’s a long time since I did Darius, my recollection is off a thread (in good rock) not very far below the bolt.
Sam - Are you saying the placement is shit or the rope/sling tied through it? Obviously one is easily sorted, the other not.

[Johnny Brown]

 

Reckon that Darius could pretty much have been done on the pegs and threads (and bolt) that were in-situ.  However, I trusted pretty much none of them. 

Indeed, and this is true for Scoop wall and many other Peak classics. Yet decent gear abounds with a modern rack. We should be looking to take stuff out of these routes, not put more in.

Darius, and Lyme Crime even more so, have had shit bolts for the last >20 years, it is an assumption included in the grade AFAIK. Both have other gear nearby and would , I think, still remain the same grade and popular if/when the bolts disappear for whatever reason.

Not sure about Lyme, but the direct finish on Darius has good threads, plus small hex/ tricams about 6 foot right and slightly below the bolt. After the initial move I'd judge the top bit to be easier if anything (original finish is quite tiring) but the E3 grade seemed fair. That said I usually do it as a single 55m pitch nowadays which is top end E2 anyway.

[Bonjoy]

<indignant>  I’m pretty sure I, sorry ‘folk’, never claimed vegetation was a bigger issue than looseness either. No wonder these debates end in polarised indecision! </indignant>

That's where we started yes, but it the debate immediately fanned out into a general 'its all going to grass' moan. The irony of that debate was that when we got there, and it wasn't long after, the bolts had already gone in. Not perhaps every one you wanted, but most - and pegs had been removed -  all very confusing when trying to do a trad climb from the book. But I think the conclusion stands - ie that the crag is unpopular due to other factors than either vegetation or a lack of bolts.

One peg on St Paul (?) fell out by hand when i pulled on it. Seb Grieve later replaced with a bolt. Personally I'd have prefered it left without.
My specific beef at CB was a route called That'll do Nicely which remains unbolted, though I did add some new pegs (3 in differnt locations, the original route had about 6 I think)as all the old ones where rotten and the placements unreusable. It is still unrepeated and is probably >E7 now iin a fairly grim way. The climbing looks good though.

[Bonjoy]

Again it's a while since I did it but recall LC having a very unobvious friend 1.5 in a vague horizontal break not far from the  bolt which is and always was a shit joke of a bolt.

[SamT]

Darius, and Lyme Crime even more so, have had shit bolts for the last >20 years, it is an assumption included in the grade AFAIK. Both have other gear nearby and would , I think, still remain the same grade and popular if/when the bolts disappear for whatever reason.

Guess I'd have to go back there and look through eyes with this topic in mind.  I'm not convinced that it would stay the same grade if the bolt were to disappear.  It was E2 in 1992 slimestone rockfax. 20 years ago. Was the bolt considered shonky back then - probably, but I think that was an era when the 'old' bolts didn't seem 'that' old.  It gets E36a if you go direct , no difference in gear as far as I'm aware - probably that you more likely to fall on the dodgy bolt from a 6a more. 

Anyway - perhaps we're getting off the topic of gardening.

[SamT]

I was saying the rope through the thread was shit. - easily sorted, but how long before it needs 'sorting' again, and again, and again etc.

[Johnny Brown]

It gets E36a if you go direct , no difference in gear as far as I'm aware - probably that you more likely to fall on the dodgy bolt from a 6a more. 

It didn't seem logical to me to clip the bolt on the direct, and hence E3. The climbing ain't much harder, and its over quicker.

Anyway - perhaps we're getting off the topic of gardening.

No we're not, as I said above this debate needs nailing down to specifics.

[shark]

The bolt on Darius was added after the first ascent "by popular demand" according to the guidebook.

Even though it changes the character I would prefer it was taken out altogether rather than replaced. Its not like you will hit the deck from all the way up there - is it?

[SamT]

Fine - just give it E3 5c in the next guide.  Like JB said - its top end e2 anyway when done from the deck and thats with the 'comfort' of the bolt to aim for and behind you on the run out for an e2 bit below anyway.

[Johnny Brown]

I think if you took the bolt out the obvious line would no longer go out left at the top - ie you'd go up the direct. Bolder but not physically harder. So it would definitely change the character, though not as much as abbing off the ledge on Original route does. Did we come to top out or what?

[shark]

it would definitely change the character, though not as much as abbing off the ledge on Original route does. Did we come to top out or what?

The ledge used to have an iron stake with a ring driven down the back and I think people used to ab off that anyway before Seb added trhe bolt belay in the late 80's.

[Johnny Brown]

Weird, I don't remember a belay being there in the mid-nineties. Maybe I just blanked it out in horror. There certainly wasn't an equalised lower-off.

[webbo]

There has always been a bolt on Darius. When Drummond freed it the bolt was still used for aid. It was then climbed without mid/late 70s. It was later removed by a falling Australian I think.
The bolt on Lyme Crime has always been shit, it was a hand drilled Troll bolt. I wouldn't have wanted to fall on it in the 80s

[SamT]

It was later removed by a falling Australian I think.

Eh ?

[Paul B]

I think if you took the bolt out the obvious line would no longer go out left at the top - ie you'd go up the direct. Bolder but not physically harder. So it would definitely change the character, though not as much as abbing off the ledge on Original route does. Did we come to top out or what?

I've spent a fair deal of time at High Tor over the past two years and I personally feel like the examples brought up at the Peak area meet regarding this work were poorly chosen.

Darius is likely to go up in the BMC guide regardless; its lost holds out left which no longer leave it as an obvious finish (IMO) and when viewed in context (i.e. compared with the other E2s and 3s at the crag its clearly in the upper category). However, this isn't a grade debate.

With regards to gear, the pocket just to the right of the bolt takes a blue or red Wallnut and its bomber, this is right next to the thread. I dare say a tricam would be damn good here too. The bolt simply doesn't need replacing.

Lyme Crime is also a poor example, the bolt resembles a pull ring from a coke can. Replacing this with anything of structural significance vastly alters the character of the route. Maybe that's a designer runout or a little contrived but this is Peak limestone trad after all.

Regardless of whether or not the belay was there for ever (on Original Route etc.) it'd be good if it is to stay for it to be of sound quality. At the minute its a bit shoddy.

[Johnny Brown]

It was then climbed without mid/late 70s. It was later removed by a falling Australian I think.

There's a fuller account in Chris Craggs' '50 best limestone routes' book, and no doubt the relevant definitive guide. The bolt was wack and came out when an attempt on an early free repeat came unstuck. I can't find a cover shot of Chris' great book, but this was the sequel:

[SamT]

With regards to gear, the pocket just to the right of the bolt takes a blue or red Wallnut and its bomber, this is right next to the thread. I dare say a tricam would be damn good here too. The bolt simply doesn't need replacing.

fairy snuff.

[Bonjoy]

There's so much going on in that picture, shallow hand tuck in tight pocket,figure hugging fibre pile, bum-chin centre-parting combo, calf high red socks over trousers, odd hand over crown jewels posture, but best of all Chris Craggs' TINY ARTISAN TEA-CUP HELD IN ONE FINGER?! Amazing.

[Wil]

I was hoping to get to the meeting but got back from work too late - a shame as this is a discussion I would be interested to be involved in.

I'm curious which crags people do think are suitable for the "bolt them to make them popular" approach. On its own I don't think this is a good argument, but there are routes which are better and more logical as sport routes.  The Darius bolt could go though, I'm sure there was gear nearby, a thread and a nut. I've not done Lyme Cryme, but may get a chance this weekend.

I'm not familiar with Martin's work in Avon, but have climbed a lot on GO Wall over the years and his approach made a lot of sense there, but probably more so because Wintour's Leap is an odd crag. Basically he bolted everything that relied heavily on fixed gear so that they're now proper sport routes, but it's done sympathetically to the existing trad ones. Old pegs came out, useful ones were replaced in the main. Wintour's has a fair few trad routes with the odd bolt and several abseil stations, but the terrain doesn't really compare with the good natural limestone venues in the Peak. Natural rock in the Wye Valley doesn't depend on pitons to the same extent for one thing.

[duncan]

It was later removed by a falling Australian I think.

Eh ?

Quote from 'Crags'.  I think the Aussie gentleman was Jon "Built like the top half of Charles Atlas" Muir.

Darius is likely to go up in the BMC guide regardless; its lost holds out left which no longer leave it as an obvious finish (IMO) and when viewed in context (i.e. compared with the other E2s and 3s at the crag its clearly in the upper category). However, this isn't a grade debate.

With regards to gear, the pocket just to the right of the bolt takes a blue or red Wallnut and its bomber, this is right next to the thread. I dare say a tricam would be damn good here too. The bolt simply doesn't need replacing.

Lyme Crime is also a poor example, the bolt resembles a pull ring from a coke can. Replacing this with anything of structural significance vastly alters the character of the route. Maybe that's a designer runout or a little contrived but this is Peak limestone trad after all.

Regardless of whether or not the belay was there for ever (on Original Route etc.) it'd be good if it is to stay for it to be of sound quality. At the minute its a bit shoddy.

+1 to all that.   

[SamT]

So the Darius bolt was placed after the first free ascent (was that Livesey  - 1974,  snapped off by the falling aussie and replaced again.  (just trying to get my head around its history)

Ahh - from the other channel...

FA. Oliver Woolcock, Clive Rowland, Paul Nunn 1963.
FFA. Pete Livesey in 1974.
The current bolt was placed by Chris Craggs, nearly 20 years ago!

[TobyD]

[I have done Kellogg three times in the last few years. There is absolutely no justification for retrobolting it. The initial wall is a bit bold, but no less so than in the eighties (in fact less so with pads), and at no point is it either reliant on decaying pegs (bomber wires and small cams) or suffering from vegetation growth. On that basis I will personally remove any bolts placed on it.

Ageed. I'd do that too.

Ditto Lyme Cryme. I like the character of british trad where you occasionally climb past these rotting pieces of history, or old industrial relics (like the girders and spikes on slate). In an ethical climbing sense, replacing the coat hangar on Lyme Cryme with a bolt would be like looking at all those wooded wedges in Millstone and saying, well, someone once tried to place a piece of protection here, let's fire up the hilti...

[kingholmesy]

+1 for JB's view on this.