[Styx]

Hi folks,

I'm currently off my feet due to a properly fucked big toe, I've taken this opportunity to finally get my beastmaker 1000 up on the wall after sitting in the corner taunting me for the last few months.

I've always been more of a route climber than a boulderer but since I picked up climbing again earlier this year after a lay off I've been making a concerted effort to boulder and get stronger as it's always been a weakness (harrr harrrr) for me. I'm pretty steady in the v3/v4 range at the moment indoors.

It's pretty apparent that my finger strength is woeful, I've been doing three sessions a week for the last three weeks, at first I couldn't even hang the 20 degree sloper with one hand on the deep 4 finger pocket(!). I can JUST about hang the 20 with both hands for a couple of reps so I'm making some progress on that front. I can't hang the bottom rung of 4 finger pockets either (the middle depth ones, not sure how to describe them).without a hand in the deep pocket above.

I started using the beginner training plan on the beastmaker site but I find that too easy now, apart from the sloper bit of course as I can't get anywhere near hanging the 35's, not even close. I'm starting to mix things up by using smaller holds for one hand, e.g. deep pocket 4 finger pocket for one hand and the next one down for the other. Is this wise or should I keep both hands at the same height on the board? e.g. one hand in the 4 finger pocket and the other in a 3 finger?

Thanks for putting up with the daft questions... Any input appreciated.

[shark]

If you have weights then worth considering weighted deadhangs. A few of us have been getting excellent results following the advice of Eva Lopez and there is a lengthy thread on her recommendations here

A more orthodox approach can be found in Probes guidance article here 

[Nibile]

In my experience when you deadhang at your limit it almost becomes a full body excercise. For sure when really pushing myself I engage arms, shoulders, abs and back.
So maybe a general strengthening plan could help.

[honroid]

If you can't hang some of the smaller holds and rely on the larger holds to allow you to train them then I would suggest a couple of options.

The first is to do exactly what you describe above; using one good hold is an excellent way to introduce a new (poor) hold. You can change the amount of weight you put on the good hold, in your case the deep 4-finger pocket, and try to put in maximum effort with your hand holding the poor hold, e.g. the sloper or the small edge.

Another idea is to set up a system that allows you to use the poor holds for both hands by attatching weights via a length of rope, through a pulley. In this way you take off specific amounts of weight and track progession easily. I think this makes more sense than adding weight (à la Eva López) at this stage.

There's no reason you can't use both methods though, either within the same session or in different sessions on different days. One thing that has come up recently from both Nibile, Shark and others is that lower reps seems to be more relevant to strength training than perhaps the plan given on the beastmaker website which seems to favour endurance(?). Cutting your reps from 6 to 3 could well give bigger gains. As Nibile says, some general strengthening exersises would be a good idea too.

Some pix of a couple of ways of removing weight using pulleys here: http://backcountrybeacon.com/2011/01/art-of-hangboarding/

[Styx]

If you have weights then worth considering weighted deadhangs. A few of us have been getting excellent results following the advice of Eva Lopez and there is a lengthy thread on her recommendations here

A more orthodox approach can be found in Probes guidance article here

Cheers, I've just ploughed through the Eva Lopez thread and I'm now insanely jealous of what people can hang 

Using this for reference:


My current work out is as follows:

6s on, 3s off, 6 reps.

Set 1: 1 hand on 6, other on 10, alternating each rep.
3 min rest
Set 2: 1 hand on 5, other on 8, alternating each rep.
3 min rest
Set 3: 1 hand on 2, other on 6, alternating each rep.

10 min rest, repeat for a total of 3.

Given that the 'smallest' hold I can hang is the deepest pocket, do you think this would be better:

Open handed hang on 6 with enough weight added so that I can hold it for 13s before failure. 10s on, 4s off, 3 reps, 4 sets?

Cheers!

[Styx]

In my experience when you deadhang at your limit it almost becomes a full body excercise. For sure when really pushing myself I engage arms, shoulders, abs and back.
So maybe a general strengthening plan could help.

Thanks, it's definitely something I'm working on as well. I've been neglecting general conditioning a bit too much in favour of just bouldering honestly but now that I don't have a choice I'm aggressively working on pull ups, push ups, dips and pistol squats as well as fingerboarding. I'm seeing pretty big gains on these fronts.

[Paul B]

I'll hold my hand up and say before I post that I'm yet to be convinced by the Lopez plan. The science isn't available for public consumption as yet and there are some pretty big questions still to be answered (the suggestion by Three Nine/Barrows that increased rest creates a taper (and hence a peak) during which recruitment is maximised). This doesn't mean it mightn't have a place but selling it as a magic bullet currently is just nonsense.

Shark (and others) will tell you he's had good gains, but I'd be bloody upset if I hadn't following a protocol that prioritises finger boarding above all else!

Despite all of that, Styx, I doubt you'd meet her 'minimum requirement', to undertake that type of hanging so all of this is irrelevant.

[jwi]

Yeah, I mean most other finger boarding plans are published in peer-reviewed open-content journals...   (Well actually G. Köstermeyer's is. (Or at least peer-reviewed.))

[Paul B]

Quite true, but none of the others come with a quote such as this:

"More power and greater endurance for only 1 minute a week!" - It sounds like a claim made by JML

this could once again descend into a circular argument, yet my point still stands; it isn't appropriate here.

[cheque]

I'm similar to you Styx- primarily a routes climber, Beastmaker 1000 owner, very weak fingers compared with many on this forum etc.

As Nibile says, I found when I first started deadhanging that other bits of my body (mainly my lats) were doing most of the work. It's only since I've been doing some weights that I feel like my fingers (forearms really I suppose) are being isolated and it's only since then that I'm making progress on which holds I can use. I still reckon I could see much more improvement with stronger shoulders.

I also use a larger hold with one hand to use smaller holds but I also found hanging the deep slots (8 ) with back three on both hands and with the middle two (in 7) with both a worthwhile one when I wasn't able to use the shallower holds- doing that made me noticeably stronger on open-handed four-finger holds on rock.

Repeaters I find great for power endurance, with noticeable transfer to routes, but don't seem to help much in terms of progression to smaller holds- max hangs seem to make me stronger on little stuff, even really pathetically short ones. I followed advice to do some more allround physical stuff (ie weights) before hanging to get the testosterone or whatever flowing and that seems to help, too. I've never measured it, though. 

Interestingly I always have better results on the boards at climbing walls than the one in my flat. I put that down to them always being mounted higher than mine so I can just dangle without lifting my feet up (but shoulders engaged of course) and with more space around them. This is definitely beneficial for one-armed hangs, which I simply can't do in my doorway at home, but other factors such as being warmed-up from bouldering, boards being more worn-in and trying harder due to having a bit of an audience  may be at work, too.

I've never used extra weight. I'm nowhere near the entry requirements fro the Eva Lopez thing so happy to stay out of that discussion!

[honroid]

Styx, why not try out both ideas? You could try out both during different sessions. My understanding of periodisation is that you should focus on one aspect of training during a certain period (e.g. strength) rather than mix them up (e.g. strength and endurance). Therefore, varying how you train that particular aspect is fine.

The repeaters seem to be exaclty what BM suggest on their site. By alternating hands I guess you are effectively cutting down the number of reps from 6 to 3 for each hand on each hold, and therefore promoting strength gains. As for throwing in some weighted hangs, why not!? Variety is the spice of life and they won't make you any weaker.

[Nibile]

The Eva Lopez opinions here are completely off-topic.
At risk of being rude, I say that talk is cheap and fingerboarding is not. If Styx is a beginner fingerboarder, anything will do, if he does it.
It doesn't always have to be rocket science or training for 9b's.
A few weights attached, some offsets hangs, and some assisted isolation hangs should probably see Styx master the worse holds.
Let's keep it real.

[honroid]

True.

[jwi]

Let's keep it real.

[Nibile]

Sorry, I was on the bus.
What I wanted to say is: let's keep it simple, probably Styx can do with very simple training plans. Or even no plan at all.
Anyway, given the many options, I'd say that using added weight at the very beginning can be quite dangerous, especially if Styx is very young.
As I wrote, offset hangs or assisted hangs should be fine.

[Sasquatch]

The Eva Lopez opinions here are completely off-topic.
At risk of being rude, I say that talk is cheap and fingerboarding is not. If Styx is a beginner fingerboarder, anything will do, if he does it.
It doesn't always have to be rocket science or training for 9b's.
A few weights attached, some offsets hangs, and some assisted isolation hangs should probably see Styx master the worse holds.
Let's keep it real.

Total agreement.

Styx - #1 thing to remember.  Overall gains are slow.  Be patient, consistant, and motivated and you will continue to improve and get stronger.

[tomtom]

Styx, I climb 7A/B on rock and never do any one arm/hand deadhangs (they feel bad) but I do - do assisted stuff.. get one hand used to the tiny hold or mono's with the other hand on a jug etc...

I am shit on limestone though...

[shark]

I have been reprimanded by Paul B for recommending weighted deadhangs to a beginner fingerboarder 

A responsible shark would have added that the guidelines for weighted deadhangs are:

•You have been climbing for more than 2 years, on a weekly basis, and without major interruptions;
 •You are older than 16 (Morrison and Schöffl, 2007); (or have the body of an adolescent)
 •You have a low or medium level of finger strength as measured by the following tests:
 ◦Being able to hang
 ■more than 15 seconds from a 24mm-deep edge,
 ■less than 35 seconds from a 20mm edge
 ■and less than 10 seconds from a 10mm edge.

For everyone else the answer to life, the universe and everything is weighted deadhangs 

[Styx]

Awesome, thanks for the input. I'll stick to a similar plan that I'm doing atm and leave the Eva Lopez stuff until I'm not such a weakling.

I'm thinking about trying this for the next month or so, what do you think? All reps 7s on, 3s off.



Set1:

LH 6, RH 10
LH 10, RH 6
LH 6, RH 10
LH 10, RH 6
LH 6, RH 10
LH 10, RH 6

10 min rest

Set 2:
LH 8 (back 3), RH 7 (middle 2)
LH 7 (middle 2), RH 8 (back 3)
LH 8 (back 3), RH 7 (middle 2)
LH 7 (middle 2), RH 8 (back 3)
LH 8 (back 3), RH 7 (middle 2)
LH 7 (middle 2), RH 8 (back 3)

10 min rest

Set 3:

LH 6, RH 3
LH 3, RH 6
LH 6, RH 3
LH 3, RH 6
LH 6, RH 3
LH 3, RH 6

My aim is to isolate my weak grips and build up the strength to be able to do a full set of repeaters  on equal sized edges/slopers.  Does this sound good?

[Styx]

I have been reprimanded by Paul B for recommending weighted deadhangs to a beginner fingerboarder 

A responsible shark would have added that the guidelines for weighted deadhangs are:

•You have been climbing for more than 2 years, on a weekly basis, and without major interruptions;
 •You are older than 16 (Morrison and Schöffl, 2007); (or have the body of an adolescent)
 •You have a low or medium level of finger strength as measured by the following tests:
 ◦Being able to hang
 ■more than 15 seconds from a 24mm-deep edge,
 ■less than 35 seconds from a 20mm edge
 ■and less than 10 seconds from a 10mm edge.

For everyone else the answer to life, the universe and everything is weighted deadhangs 

To be fair, I do pretty much exactly fit in to all of those brackets.

- Been climbing 3-4 times a week for ~3 years bar a few breaks for injuries, etc.
- Piss poor finger strength.
- 29 years young
- Probably can hang a 24mm, don't have anything between 40mm and 18mm, though.
- Almost definitely can't hang 20mm or 10mm for any length of time.

[Sasquatch]

Awesome, thanks for the input. I'll stick to a similar plan that I'm doing atm and leave the Eva Lopez stuff until I'm not such a weakling.

I'm thinking about trying this for the next month or so, what do you think? All reps 7s on, 3s off.

........

Current Fads: Lopez and Deadlifts!!!!

If the only question is how to progress on a fingerboard, the answer is one of the following three items:

• More time hanging
• More weight
• Smaller holds.

 
Also I'm a bit confused. Are you looking at doing:

Repeater 1 - holds 6 and 10,switching holds each 7 second hang?
  10 min rest
Repeater 2 - Holds 7 and 8, switching holds each 7 second hang?
  10 min rest
Repeater 3 - Holds 6 and 3, switching holds each 7 second hang?

Or:

Repeater 1 - LH 6 RH 10, 3min rest
Repeater 2 - LH 10 RH 6, 3min rest
Repeater 3 - LH 6 RH 10, 3min rest
Repeater 4 - LH 10 RH 6, 3min rest
Repeater 5 - LH 6 RH 10, 3min rest
Repeater 6 - LH 10 RH 6, 3min rest

Rest 10 min and repeat above for other grip combos.

That's alot of repeaters on the same holds.....  Seems to me like way too much volume.  Even on repeater sets, the idea is to add/reduce weight as needed so that you are failing at the end of your sets.

Remember - more does not always equal better.  

When I started off doing repeaters (last January for reference, so I'm not an expert), I would use assistance and slowly reduce the amount of assistance needed until I could do full body weight.  Then add weight until I hit about 15kg, then go to a smaller hold with assistance and repeat the process.  be aware that every different hold grouping you are doing is adding overall volume and increasing the amount of recovery time needed, and decreasing the effectiveness of later sets on pure strength gains.  Good for stamina though. 

[Sasquatch]

Quite true, but none of the others come with a quote such as this:

"More power and greater endurance for only 1 minute a week!" - It sounds like a claim made by JML

this could once again descend into a circular argument, yet my point still stands; it isn't appropriate here.

I full agree with you that the quote is BS.  It's reminds me of 10 minute, wait I mean 8 minute , wait I mean 5 minute abs...

From a different perspective though if you take the marketing BS out and just look at basics of the plan, it's a controlled way to maximally recruit your fingers twice a week.  That's something that is pretty easy to see the value of in a planned training program.  I agree it's not the best thing since sliced bread, but it certainly has it's place.  As do repeaters/ARC/Aerocap/etc.

[shark]

If the only question is how to progress on a fingerboard, the answer is one of the following three items:

• More time hanging
• More weight
• Smaller holds.

Less digits, reduced time intervals between hangs, greater volume of hangs in a session and consistency across all hold types and grip positions are additional items which also represent potential progression [/list]

[Nibile]

I did repeaters twice in the last two years and they fried my elbow twice.
My two pence.

[Nibile]

Remember - more does not always equal better.  

Incidentally, I have started a blog entry regarding exactly this, but due to bring a lazy bastard and putting training and aperitivos always first, I haven't finished it. Anyway it will set a new milestone.
I think I'll give the students a test today to finish it at school...