[Nibile]

As seperate point re failing in exercises that isnt always the way to go in gaining strength. I'm experimenting with Lopez's two handed weighted hangs where the recommendation is that you do 3 reps (with 3 mins rest between reps) with resistance at a level that you hang for 10secs at a level where you expect to fail at 13 secs.   

would be interested in that.
I'd like to know your progresses and impressions. I read an entry on her blog, about bigger gains being obtained when training on bigger holds than on micro crimps.

[abarro81]

Anecdotally and with with no allowance for other factors relating to training/recovery etc I seem to make better gains doing ~10s hangs than short ones, usually where I don't quite fail, similar to how Shark suggested.

[shark]

As seperate point re failing in exercises that isnt always the way to go in gaining strength. I'm experimenting with Lopez's two handed weighted hangs where the recommendation is that you do 3 reps (with 3 mins rest between reps) with resistance at a level that you hang for 10secs at a level where you expect to fail at 13 secs.   

would be interested in that.
I'd like to know your progresses and impressions. I read an entry on her blog, about bigger gains being obtained when training on bigger holds than on micro crimps.

Will do.

The workout seems too little to make big gains but I'm intrigued and keeping an open mind.

I'm waiting on the final version of a portable fingerboard Ive been developing with Probes (the Wedge) over the last 8 months so will properly benchmark and train on that when it arrives. To date I've done a couple of sessions on a rounded second joint hold with 25kg weight on my harness.

Just about to start another session now as I've had a meeting rearranged (suit back off again).

[Big Dave]

I'm waiting on the final version of a portable fingerboard Ive been developing with Probes (the Wedge) over the last 8 months so will properly benchmark and train on that when it arrives.

Hmmm, sounds interesting, any more info you can say about this?

[shark]

I'm waiting on the final version of a portable fingerboard Ive been developing with Probes (the Wedge) over the last 8 months so will properly benchmark and train on that when it arrives.

Hmmm, sounds interesting, any more info you can say about this?

Might be easier if I post up a video when it arrives 

[lmarenzi]

Re: going close to max for 10 seconds, repeated a few times: I think this makes sense for strength gains. The problem with holds you can only hang for 3 seconds or so (real max hangs) is it feels like putting your fingers into a live three pin socket: electric shock leading to pain and to every muscle in your forearm going rock hard at once, and then you ping off. After those 3 seconds you essentially need to warm down and take the rest of the day off - its called a "one rep max" for a reason, after all. Intensity is good, but my question is always: has the body had a chance to understand the stimulus and adapt to it?

Even weight lifters whose only aim is to improve single rep max will mostly be doing sets of sub maximal lifts (up to 6, perhaps?) to get stronger. That sixish number is what you would be doing for repeaters too, so I would assume that repeaters primarily build strength and are not, in fact, very power endurancy (whatever power endurance might mean) as is assumed by some people.

Downside of the 10s x 3 max hang or BM type repeaters for building strength is that ultimately you want to be able to bone down on a one rep max holds to send that one, solitary PB boulder that you have set yourself, so mixing some into your training has to be good too.

[shark]

Downside of the 10s x 3 max hang or BM type repeaters for building strength is that ultimately you want to be able to bone down on a one rep max holds to send that one, solitary PB boulder that you have set yourself, so mixing some into your training has to be good too.

The idea initially is to do weighted hangs for a few weeks to build up to unweighted hangs on a small hold for a few more weeks. From there you do more sophisticated stuff including hypertrophy which as part of a periodised plan on a poster that comes with progression fingerboard. You can glean some of the ideas from her blog:
http://en-eva-lopez.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Finger%20training

Got to be good to try something different every so often. Especially with this weather.

[Probes]

Have you got all the documentation, training stuff she's produced? She was holding back some back so that you get it with the board. I've still yet to really look at what she's saying.. interesting stuff 

[Lopez]

http://en-eva-lopez.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Finger%20training

 

I can see a business opportunity filling fingertips with d3o...

[lmarenzi]

In reply to Shark:

Good intel there from Mme. Lopez, thanks.

I would assume getting strong on big edges translates to small edges up to a point. Not surprised it does not translate to very small edges though, because the ability to hang really small holds is more likely to be linked to length of the fingers than their "strength". That is to do with torque and lever distances and I don't really understand it, but put simply, small holds will feel bigger to people with small hands and therefore will be more practical and comfortable to pull on.

[Sasquatch]

As seperate point re failing in exercises that isnt always the way to go in gaining strength. I'm experimenting with Lopez's two handed weighted hangs where the recommendation is that you do 3 reps (with 3 mins rest between reps) with resistance at a level that you hang for 10secs at a level where you expect to fail at 13 secs.   

would be interested in that.
I'd like to know your progresses and impressions. I read an entry on her blog, about bigger gains being obtained when training on bigger holds than on micro crimps.

I'm at the start of week 4 and have gone from a total hanging weight of 235 the first week to this morning's set of 262 total hanging weight.   So an 11.5% strength gain in 3 weeks.  I'm pretty floored by the results.  Her recommended second 4 week cycle is based around the same 10sec hangs(at a fail at 13sec level), but instead of adding weight, you use the smallest hold you can instead. 

Even weight lifters whose only aim is to improve single rep max will mostly be doing sets of sub maximal lifts (up to 6, perhaps?) to get stronger. That sixish number is what you would be doing for repeaters too, so I would assume that repeaters primarily build strength and are not, in fact, very power endurancy (whatever power endurance might mean) as is assumed by some people.

I'm not sold on this, but am open to debate/discussion.  I think the difference is that when you are doing lfting for strength, you will do 3-5 sets of 3-6 reps.  This generally amounts to about 6-20 seconds of total work per set.  A repeater set amounts to 42sec of work in a minute, which is considerably more.  Also if you follow the BM repeaters then you're doing 12 sets of 42 seconds.  That's alot of work. That's why my current stance is that repeaters are more power endurance than pure power. That said, if I really want to train power endurance, I would probably do Steve Mac's campus board with feet on PE workout.

Like I said though, I'm open to deabte on this.  My thoughts are definitely not fully formulated.

[lmarenzi]

Hi Sasquatch

Great results on the board ... would be interested if this is exponential gain that you would expect when you first start and refine a new exercise or sustainable improvement. I'm guessing your fingers, like your abs, are none to weak. Also, it would be interesting to see if there is any tangible improvement on problems that require increased finger strength on proper rock.

Interesting your take on repeaters. I should have said that when I do these I do 1 min sets (7s on 3 s rest ish) on ledges that I usually fail on towards the end of the minute. Then I rest until fully recovered, but still warmed up, usually around 5-15 mins or more. In practice I might manage something like 35 to 40s on? I guess that doing an overhead squat takes about 5 seconds from top to bottom to top, so doing a six rep max might take around 30s of work plus a little rest at the top, so less but quite comparable.

At the end of the day I feel the one minute routine mimics doing a monotonous, crimpy, static 12 move boulder problem just beyond what I can do, with a rest and then trying it again (maybe once or twice, performance drops after that).

Where I agree with you is that if you do the whole beginner routine BM recommend (three hold types x 3 x 3) then you are working ... well, I never really understood what you were meant to be working. Boredom threshold? Good timekeeping? Too many different but related holds for any focus or intensity, not enough rest and much, much, much too much volume to be any good at all for strength work.

[Sasquatch]

Imarenzi -
Based on how you're doing repeaters I would think it's closer to power than the recommended repeater stes, but if it mimics a 12 move boulder problem, then is that really power?  Honest question, and alot of the answer relates to your goals.  I'm a boulderer and thus when I think of power, I'm thinking 1-3 moves at max, and as such that's my current aim in training. 

I'm also curious how much of the gain is "real strength" vs. learning the routine.  As far as the transfer to proper rock, I would say that yes the gains are very noticeable.  With all of my climbing partners, I've always been relatively weaker on crimps, but generally speaking have a bit better movement and body tension.  Nowadays, I'm crushing on the finger strength as well, even compared to just a month ago. 

Another side effect is that my raw pulling strength is WAYYY better than ever, even as compared to when I was training wtd pull-ups.  I'm doing all my hangs at about a 30 degree elbow bend (has to do with how I mounted my board -  my stupidity is apparently going to have a benefit )

[Paul B]

what she's saying regarding larger edges was shown yonks ago by Morstad wasn't it?

I can certainly remember reading some information regarding the benefits of deadhanging edges <10mm diminishing and the injury potential increasing massively. I've only got a copy of a few of the articles and this isn't one of them.

Shark, do you have the poster that accompanies the board?

(those resin edges look horrific to train on).

[Sasquatch]

(those resin edges look horrific to train on).

I've got a wood edge that's 18mm that I'm using at this point and I'll just use shims to cut it back to the right size when needed. 

I think we're a bit  though....  Maybe we should start a new one....

[shark]

Shark, do you have the poster that accompanies the board?

Nope. I dont think a Progression Board has arrived in the UK yet.

[abarro81]

Bolger has one and is currently in the uk so probably theres one at least. They're huge, you'd need a lot of space for one. Not sure if he's actually used it yet. Randall read the poster whilst we were staying with them, cant remember what he made of it other than being surprised by the low number of hangs

[dpb]

The latest edition of Escalar has an article by Lopez.  It contains her training plans for beginners and advanced climbers for both max strength and power endurance.  No idea if this if the same as then poster though.

[k2ted]

Just my tuppence - For me, first the moon board and 6 secs etc, advocated by ?.....
Then the beast maker with repeaters....Must get one. Now another board.
It all sounds good and may keep you interested.  for me it took a few years to crimp the top holds of moonboard, but I'm over 14 stone and came to climbing late. I now train on the moon board but can't climb for peanuts. I don't think another finger board/ routine would speed up the finger strength gains. Its slow, for me anyhow. I'll be trying the new board when available in uk... Possibly keep me motivated. I'll stick to the 6 second hangs for now though.

[lmarenzi]

Agree we have gone well   

Sasquatch, not surprised to hear you are crushing 

Words like strength or power in relation to climbing have lost any real meaning (pls no recommendations for where I can read up on it, I have tried and failed), so now it makes more sense to talk specifics.

The point is that if you want to improve your 1 or 2 rep max, which is what you need for a short boulder problem, I reckon working your 5/6 rep max is going to be the main way to do it.

[rodma]

http://en-eva-lopez.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Finger%20training

 

I can see a business opportunity filling fingertips with d3o...

Problem with that picture is that they are dragging the edge of the rung, which requires very little increased finger strength from dragging the edge of a larger rung. Really hard to hold (hence beneficial to training)small holds are all about the half-crimp, hence the increased risk of injury.

[Serpico]

You need to see the picture in the context of the blog it came from to understand the point it was illustrating.

[rodma]

You need to see the picture in the context of the blog it came from to understand the point it was illustrating.

Fair dos, didn't really have the time. Edit: Not sorry, have now read article and i stand by my commments

It's just quite a common mistake to think that because you can open hand hang (albeit by the skin dragging) a very small edge that this will in some way translate to anything other than small holds that rely on this type of friction, utilising that exact griptype.

If, on the otherhand you are half-crimping an 18mm edge to start with, then half crimping a 9mm edge (or smaller) will not be twice as hard as this.

[shark]

You need to see the picture in the context of the blog it came from to understand the point it was illustrating.

Fair dos, didn't really have the time. Edit: Not sorry, have now read article and i stand by my commments

It's just quite a common mistake to think that because you can open hand hang (albeit by the skin dragging) a very small edge that this will in some way translate to anything other than small holds that rely on this type of friction, utilising that exact griptype.

If, on the otherhand you are half-crimping an 18mm edge to start with, then half crimping a 9mm edge (or smaller) will not be twice as hard as this.

The point Eva was making that training on small holds has certain limitations because of skin and conditions and  having the right shaped fingers.

I'm not sure what point you are making but you don't seem to be disagreeing with that     

[b3n99]

Sasquatch I'm very interested in this training program, especially as the gains seem to be quite significant. Could you share some info about how many sets of the 3 reps you do and how many times per week do you do this session. Do you find you can do it on a day where you might also climb? Particularly interested to overcome skin issues especially it being summer and horrible and humid.
Thanks