[Stubbs]

running will do little other than allow you to eat more cakes and maintain an acceptable body fat percentage.

Surely this is more than enough reason?

Exactly! Plus the long term health benefits of giving the cardiovascular system a bit more of a workout than the arduous approach to Raven Tor.

[Fiend]

Nope, it doesn't transfer because it's specific, this is one of the best established principles of sports science - SAID; specific adaptations to imposed demands. Increased mitochondria in the legs won't stop your forearms getting pumped, increased lung capacity won't make a difference if the lung capacity isn't a limiting factor, the enzymes that deal with fatigue metabolites develop only where they're needed, and so on...
Fitness really means fitness for what you've trained for, climbing is not a CV sport, running won't help climbing in any way. If you're having to run to control weight it's because you're consuming more calories than you need.
There are good reasons for running - pleasure, or for CV health, but not for improving climbing.

What about if you regularly get out of breath climbing??

Also, and more importantly, which quarry??

[shark]

What about if you regularly get out of breath climbing??

Being out of breath and panting is not always a symptom of cardiovascular activity i.e. wanking is not a cardiovascular workout.

[dpb]

Are you likely to recover faster/better after a hard day at the crag (and therefore be able to climb again sooner) if you are in better cardiovascular shape?

Running will help maintain a low percentage of body fat. I know this can also be done by controlling calorie intake. Are there general health benefits of achieving this through exercise rather than dieting?

[shark]

Are you likely to recover faster/better after a hard day at the crag (and therefore be able to climb again sooner) if you are in better cardiovascular shape?

There is a small study here that running/walking after climbing can be beneficial as active recovery by accelerating lactate clearance but personally I would favour easy climbing or traversing instead if given the choice.

This is quite diffrent from being in better general CV shape as a way of recovering quicker.

[Muenchener]

For really drawn out physically demanding avenues of climbing such as freeing big walls, I am not so sure: I think it helps.

Here we can ask people who actually know what they are talking about when it comes to climbing activites that involve slogging away for hours or days at a time, and they don't seem to rate running particularly either.

Steve House in his training blog (currently down) talked about walking up a big hill in big boots with a rucksack full of water bottles several times a day.

Mark Twight in Extreme Alpinism recommends a base endurance programme consisting of running or biking an hour or two to the gym, doing a long, high reps weights session then running or biking an hour or two back.

Andy Kirkpatrick also recommends walking up hills with a big rucksack and doing lots of bodyweight exercises and high rep weights.

(Üli Steck otoh runs a lot)

I suspect when it gets to the real outer limits of endurance - Buhl's night out on Nanga Parbat, Messner's descent of the Diamir Face - then supreme endurance fitness is a given, and what makes the difference is the mental ability to keep grinding on no matter what. (I read Messner's autobiography hoping to learn something about what it is to be a highly successful person, and learned a lot about what it is to be a miserable bastard.)

[slackline]

Yeah, but Steck runs up mountain routes so its good training for him.

[dpb]

Are you likely to recover faster/better after a hard day at the crag (and therefore be able to climb again sooner) if you are in better cardiovascular shape?

There is a small study here that running/walking after climbing can be beneficial as active recovery by accelerating lactate clearance but personally I would favour easy climbing or traversing instead if given the choice.

This is quite diffrent from being in better general CV shape as a way of recovering quicker.

Thanks. So does CV shape make no difference to recovery rate?

is running not generally a healthier, more positive form of weight control than dieting? I appreciate that, if you're limited for time training wise, counting calories may fit better with life but if you can commute running etc would this not better and therefore directly benefit (solely by being lighter) your climbing?

[Serpico]

What about if you regularly get out of breath climbing??

That's mostly down to breath holding, there's a high degree of body tension which makes breathing difficult.

Also, and more importantly, which quarry??

Lower Montcliffe - of interest to R-Man only.

Are you likely to recover faster/better after a hard day at the crag (and therefore be able to climb again sooner) if you are in better cardiovascular shape?

There is a small study here that running/walking after climbing can be beneficial as active recovery by accelerating lactate clearance but personally I would favour easy climbing or traversing instead if given the choice.

It accelerates short term recovery, after 3hrs there's no difference.

Running will help maintain a low percentage of body fat. I know this can also be done by controlling calorie intake. Are there general health benefits of achieving this through exercise rather than dieting?

Yes, this is why I started running.

I wouldn't run on the same day as climbing though:
Extensive research shows that training multiple qualities, such as strength and endurance, within the same workout diminishes the development of either quality. My favorite: one study showed that simply adding 10 minutes of hard-paced running at the end of a strength session resulted in an almost 20% sacrifice in gains.
From Steve Bechtel's Blog.

Good luck with that one mate!!!

Might be OK by week2.

[abarro81]

I wouldn't run on the same day as climbing though:
Extensive research shows that training multiple qualities, such as strength and endurance, within the same workout diminishes the development of either quality. My favorite: one study showed that simply adding 10 minutes of hard-paced running at the end of a strength session resulted in an almost 20% sacrifice in gains.
From Steve Bechtel's Blog.

Got links to some of those studies (or ideally a review of this stuff)? I have a habit to tagging aero cap and ARC on the end of sessions (in fact I only do these at the end of other sessions), and do all my an cap at the end of bouldering sessions - wondering if I could get better gains by changing this around, though this structure has given me good results over the last year...

[Jules L]

I've always understood the purpose of running to be to remove the lactate from training sessions, and to increase recovery on long routes. You can certainly feel the lactate rushing round your body when you run during a heavy training week (at least I think that's what it is).

All the top climbers in Spain run - Ramonet, Patxi, Edu Marin etc.

[dpb]

I'm sure I read that Sasha is a keen runner too

[Serpico]

I've always understood the purpose of running to be to remove the lactate from training sessions, and to increase recovery on long routes. You can certainly feel the lactate rushing round your body when you run during a heavy training week (at least I think that's what it is).

Running, or anything that increases heart rate or uses the big muscles of the legs as pumps will clear lactate quicker than doing nothing, but, if you do nothing the lactate will still completely clear within a couple of hours. If you want to clear  a pump between redpoint attempts - keep active, if you want to recover between climbing days - eat well and get a good nights sleep.

[shark]

is running not generally a healthier, more positive form of weight control than dieting? I appreciate that, if you're limited for time training wise, counting calories may fit better with life but if you can commute running etc would this not better and therefore directly benefit (solely by being lighter) your climbing?

Like I said:

Running is good for many other physical and psychological reasons and as it doesnt detract from climbing performance there is no reason not to do it if it you have the time and are maxing out on more specific training but I am sceptical of claims of even marginal physical crossover benefits on climbing endurance.

Personally I find running makes me too hungry. It can also cause a range of injuries. I tend to push myself hard when I do it. lf you can keep in the right zones of time and intensity I gather it's good for fat burning but that's a very tricky act to pull off. I think the climbing and climbing training I do makes me healthy enough if combined with a reasonably good quality diet. Run if you like it and works for you. I don't and I've never been as consistently lean as I am now.   

[Sasquatch]

1.  Shark - Thanks for separating the thread.

2.  If you had to generate an ideal training program with no real world limitations such as wall access, time, family, work, etc, You wouldn't plan running into the training program. 

3.  Due to the above limitations, running can have indirect benefits which can impact your climbing performance (weight loss/body composition, recovery, etc) which have been listed above. 

4.  Generally speaking(unless you're Ueli Steck) the mechanics of running are not something you do while climbing, so based on SAID(priniciple of Specificity) there is little to no crossover to climbing ability from running.

Does that about sum up the thread so far?

[Muenchener]

Does that about sum up the thread so far?

Pretty much, but

5. Perhaps surprisingly in the light of all of the above, lots of top climbers do quite a bit of running. Dave MacLeod, Patxi, Ramonet,  Edu Marin as already mentioned, see also the interview with Francois LeGrand on powerquest.cc (no direct link, scroll/page to podcast #60. Lots of other interesting climber/athlete/coach interviews on there to, although mostly in heavily Austrian-accented German). Stevie H too, although he seems to be pretty clear about running because he wants to not because he believes it helps with his climbing.

[Fiend]

....because it keeps them super-fucking-skinny.

[Adam Lincoln]

I've got a BL postcode, always have had, and I can see a quarry from my bedroom window, and the Reebok from my spare room window. I'm so Bolton it hurts.

But live in Horwich... I have an Edinburgh postcode but don't live in Edinburgh.

[Nibile]

I think that the latest entry on Dave Macleod's blog puts and end to the debate, regarding the aim of running.

[shark]

I think that the latest entry on Dave Macleod's blog puts and end to the debate, regarding the aim of running.

Finally needing a climbing rest day I went for another fasted run before breakfast. ...straight up the slope...a brutally steep glycogen burning continuous climb straight to the summit. Going as fast as I could, I could start to feel the glycogen tank emptying after only 45 minutes....Having a few of these runs in the bag recently is meaning I can now keep going a fair bit better once the tank is empty and I’m making glucose out of body fat.....
I sat down in the cool breeze among the crowd of summitteers, for a few minutes. I couldn’t stay though, I was pretty damn hungry and the sound of many sandwiches being munched all around me was deafening. Get moving!.... Running through Steall I could really feel I was burning fat and stopping running even for a moment to clamber over rocks on jelly legs gave me an overwhelming urge to lie down. So I cruised on happily down the familiar path back to my car and an egg roll in town.

[tomtom]

I think that the latest entry on Dave Macleod's blog puts and end to the debate, regarding the aim of running.

Yup - the point of running is to make you feel ill and desire egg rolls

[Three Nine]

Seems fucking retarded all Macleod's running earlier in the day before training. I suspect he's just got keen on running!

[ghisino]

Francois LeGrand

speaking of french, i've seen the training program of one of their lead competitors (still active, the program was from a few years ago though).

2 weekly sessions of moderate running (1h at comfy pace) were scheduled on "easy" or "off" days.
In the opinion of the trainer, being cardio-fit is not directly important but it helps general recovery, and makes it possible to handle a slightly bigger training volume...
Plus, he said, making young athletes run early in the morning encourages a healty lifestyle 


on a personal note i've experienced a loose correlation between being cardio-fit and some types of climbing...my best days at céuse are usually announced by a good pace on the walk in, and especially the ability to keep a high heart rate all the way through.
But it could just be that i wake up more psyched than usual on those days...

[Plattsy]

I rest my case.

[Yossarian]

Without professing to huge swathes of scientifically confirmed knowledge about all of this...

Isn't running particularly catabolic?

As far as I can recall, every close friend who entered into a serious running programme (without any accompanying full-body strength routine alongside) dropped a good proportion of upper-body mass at a fairly equal rate to fat loss. And I have never ever seen a club-level runner with a physique that I an envious of in any way. Most of them look more like coathangers than men...

I'm interested in the effect of running on strength gains though. While not training for climbing (at the moment) I have been lifting quite a lot of iron recently, and was finishing quite a few sessions with a 30min treadmill run. (Would prefer the road, but small child can't hack the distance.) Sounds like the two are counter-productive. Today I did the run before work, and will train solely strength tonight. Assuming that will be much more effective...