[Nibile]

so, as I've said, I generally boulder and train alone, but when not, I generally boulder and train with climbers that are at least 8 years younger than me, if not more.
I don't pay much attention to my age, because mentally I don't feel it at all (17 year old brain), the fact is that I am 40 and I must take it into account.
I think my power is OK and also my finger strength, probably at an all time peak. I also have good core tension, I think. but I seem to need more time to recover, and also my power doesn't last long. I generally train at high intensity, being unable to do otherwise, so I just try to play with the sessions' volume.
The Guru came out with a new idea/experiment the other day, and I'll be the guinea pig once more: to start training basically every day, or anyway almost every day, with very short and very intense sessions.
the idea appeals me, so I'd like to have opinions about this, but also about how the other oldies here reckon things go after 40, in terms of volume and intensity of the sessions.
thanks.

[gollum]

I'm 45 and am four months back into climbing after a six year lay off and I follow pretty much the same routine. I train every day in split sessions with weights at lunch and either bouldering or campus an Beastmaker repeaters each eve. Seems to work and pretty much the routine I was doing at my peak. Never train to exhaustion or anything like it. Pretty good gains and still progressing, probably getting up 7C and close to the odd 7C+ at wall. Have to manage elbows but plenty of stretching seems to do that and only lock offs give any real pain. Target is 8A before December and am 46 and don't think that massively unrealistic.

So long and short of it is I reckon if listen to your body you can train pretty hard.

[Pebblespanker]

Nibs I'm 50 this year  and a light year away from your level of ability but I also train alone a lot of the time at home as wall access is intermittent for me when up in Scotland so thought this might be applicable.

After much thought over slow progression/plateauing up the grades I worked out I am weak (lol no brainer really) and that my finger strength is OK (for now), but that honest realization of this for me took quite a while. Got frustrated at not reaching my goal of a 1 armer on a large Beastmaker 1000 hold. Now I'm currently using a variant on a method I read about in an article on Leah Crane. The idea in the article was to set a goal of a 1 armer on a hold she couldn't currently manage one on. The method was warm up well then do 3 sets of 3 reps aiming to try and do 3 reps if you see what mean) and do this 3 times a day each day. Leah used assitance and gradually decreased assistance until she could do it unassisted

What I did was establish what weight I could do 2 reps at on my chosen pull up holds. I now do 3 sets trying to reach 3 reps in all set, once I do that the weight is upped by 2kg and I start trying to get 3 lots of 3 reps in set... I do 2 lots each day not 3, reasoning being longer recovery due to age, more risk of injury and to ensure I am training as fresh as possible. The last session of the day is finished with a dumbell complex/bodyweight type session of around 120-150 reps to work the antagonistics (biceps etc). Session length around 30 mins tops and for me, high intensity. Pleased to say it appears to be working and have made some steady gains in strength as my 1RM has improved by around 4kg already  Go for it and good luck!

[Andy W]

I like this thread  ...I'm 47 and kind of agree with the short intensity theory. This spring I did an 8a and 8A traverse, all time high!...that was following a training plan of blocks of fairly high intensity, ie short sessions of campus, beastmaker and bouldering. My only real signs of soreness and fatigue come after sessions with mates where I try all kinds of stuff and throw myself at things, no rests etc. So in conclusion if I stick to training periodised blocks, time in rests etc, improvement seems possible.

[Fiend]

Interesting topic. What is El Guru's reasoning??

[Nibile]

Still don't know, but for sure the idea is to up the frequency (is it possible?) and diminish the volume of the sessions. I have to say that recently i've had very good sessions the day after a short intense session in which i didn't feel very powerful (and hence the short volume and duration of the first session). I've also noticed good gains on the BM from when I shifted from 6 to 3 hangs for each hold. Higher intensiy for shorter time.
The idea to me is that training power you have to be short. The 3 sets of hangs that I am not doing right now, which gains would give? I mean, could I still keep such a high intensity on the second 3 sets, as to make them worth doing? Or would they be a loss of time both in terms of effort and hindering a fast and good compensation? Just a few weeks ago I was struggling on the medium pockets back2. Now I routinely hang them with 6 kg on and hung the small ones? Could it really be that after twenty years I got it right?
The problem is that I love training, I have fun, and that's why I get carried away and do too much.
Keep the replies coming!!!

[Fiend]

Compensation....you think it might be about helping recovery time??

[keefe]

Hi Nibs, I like this thread.

My own history is a few years of stamina oriented climbing, persistently being weak & never having fallen in love with bouldering.
Over the last couple of years, I have repeatedly tried to include bouldering in my routines to try & address that weakness, but there was always something more interesting to do.
For the last couple of years, 3 - 4 days a week of middling sessions - i.e. ocasionally coming away totally wasted, but generally not.

Last year, I turned 51 & it was one of my best ever in terms of sport-climbing performance. Towards the end of the year, I tried increasing the intensity I was working at - doing up to 5 sessions a week - maybe 1 fingerboard, 2 boulder (PE) sessions & 2 days on routes. That led to some golfer's elbow issues, which I've been trying to work through since December.

In terms of what I can do at the moment - I'm too worried that I'll further aggravate the elbow to do more than 3 sessions / week, so I'm tending to make them quite big sessions - then with 1 or 2 days off, I can recover well. This seems to be working, although I haven't tried any projects recently - so its a little hard to judge. These have been strength sessions for a few weeks, & now PE for about 5 weeks. I seem to be surprisingly (to myself) strong, given that I feel I'm not doing as much as I could - and I haven't really explored my stamina yet.

I don't think I could face daily sessions at the moment - but I don't know how much of that is injury-related reticence & how much is age-related decrepitude.

[Nibile]

I found The Guru's email with a rough pattern.
the idea could be:
- 2 weeks of daily, short, intense sessions
- 1 week of long, volume oriented sessions (less frequent I guess)
- 1 supercompensation week (still with no suggested pattern of sessions).

I really think it's about recovery/compensation. I mean, I can have good goes on hard problems, but less of them, in a session. For sure this is also due to a massive change in my usual bouldering sessions on rock in the last two-three years: get there, possibly early, pull as hard as you can, go home soon. it's important to also have some kind of stamina, in case one has to work a tricky problem for longer, then remains with no beans for the redpoint. (a couple of Parisella's sessions spring to mind!!!).
I had a monster sessions on Monday the 12th, three hours, good power, good core, good fingers, really satisfying. I still haven't recovered...

Keefe, thanks!!! but from the post it seems to me that you upped both intensity and frequency, so both intensity and volume!!! maybe that's the cause of the elbow issues?

[Probes]

Hi Nible, not quite in the same league as you guys yet  .....  but 40 is closer than 30 . Ive been messing about with session lengths a bit lately too. 1).. because someone has commented I might be doing too longer sessions usual 3 hours 3xweek and 2).. a mate climbs nearly 6 days a week doing short sessions and he has made gains with this.
I've kind of concluded that doing a combination of the two appears to be working best now. 2 week block of hour sessions maybe 5/6 times a week, then a 2 week block of monster sessions 2/3 times a week.
I found hitting the boards often tends to build fatigue slowly and i feel after two weeks injuries aren't far away. Then 2 week of big sessions gives some good recovery time between sessions but also gives you that shock load to the system (whatever that is) those big overloads that kind of kick you up the ass once youve recovered.
Anyhow this seems to suit me now, I'm managing to train hard, get recovered properly at least once a month, injuries are staying away, and the changes in session styles is keeping me interested..  and im pulling really hard again, maybe as strong if not stronger than i was 15 years ago..

Be interested to see Nible if you stick to short and often sessions what happens in the long run. Like I say myy mate does this, but he plateus really often and struggles like hell to step up again.

[Nibile]

The Guru's idea is very close to what you're doing Probes. and it's what I am going to be doing, probably. thanks for the infos!!!

[Andy W]

Moon I think once said 'stop strong', I often 'stop' !...the thing I wanted to add was how do oldies feel about warming up. I find i don't need much of a warm up and ironies being whenever I do a lengthy warm up I always injure myself!

[Nibile]

interesting!!!
I take ages to warm up, I mean easily 45 minutes.

[Sasquatch]

I'm really interested in hearing how this goes for you. 

I'm a bit younger(35) and haven't been doing quite the same thing, but I sort of fell into a 5-6 day/week routine this winter with my training and it's been amazing to see the difference.  My weeks generally have been:

Monday: FB-Encores - 1 Hr
Tuesday: ARC/Power(big hold campusing, or dynos) - 1 Hr Each
Wednesday: FB-one arm-repeaters - 1 Hr
Thursday: ARC/Boulder  - 1 Hr Each
Friday: FB - Max Hang - 1 Hr
Saturday - Off/Fun Stuff
Sunday - Volume - Long easy session with just a little bit of hard stuff in the middle. 3-4 Hours

As far as the warming up question - I've found that it takes much less time to warm up climbing everyday.  A day off means my warm-up will be twice as long.

But in all honestly I'm fairly new to training for climbing.  I've climbed since 1995, but not until this past winter have I really planned and executed a training program for climbing.  I've trained for tons of other events-runnning, Cycling, Triathlon, etc, but never climbing.

Totally off-topic, but it seems to me like many aspects for cycling training would be good for climbing training.  Bike racers have to be able to go hard for short and long bursts, events can be everything from short mountain sprints(5-10min) to monster 200 mile(10hr) stamina races.  Mtn bikers even do a huge amount of skills training (and WAY off in left field, but pump tracks are crazy fun).

[IS2]

I am 61 and about to retire and go full time.  Generally I boulder through the winter and then do routes from March on wards. I have two boards in the garage one very steep and one at about 10 degrees for warming up. I really enjoy long hard training sessions getting completely wasted as a counter to the day job. However I know that this indulgence never builds strength or power.  If I want to get strong then this works for me.
A short warm up stretching and using a theraband along side some old fashioned " burpees " to get the aerobic systems ticking before every session.  I then do three sets of pyramids deadhanging / pulling up  on a bar or finger board from light weight through to medium then  the maximum I can use for three pull ups, then down again. This is followed by lots of stretching.
Day one I use a bar, next day a broad finger edge. Third day  finger board smallest holds I can use.  Rest for two days... Then on the garage board three tries at each of my three nearly can do projects. Rest two days then back to the pull up / lock sessions.

I rarely get very strong because I rarely get through the cycle more than two or three times..... I am easily led and go to the wall and waste hours doing circuits which tire me but produce little gain.  However when I do keep at the short high intensity stuff I have significant gains.

Incidentally I find that good quality stretching makes more impact on actually sending projects than becoming very strong, so long as a keep my fingers strong.

Looking forward to being full time in the Autumn so I can get stuck into some endurance training, which my job has always stopped me doing.
   

[biscuit]

Totally off-topic, but it seems to me like many aspects for cycling training would be good for climbing training.  Bike racers have to be able to go hard for short and long bursts, events can be everything from short mountain sprints(5-10min) to monster 200 mile(10hr) stamina races.  Mtn bikers even do a huge amount of skills training (and WAY off in left field, but pump tracks are crazy fun).
[/quote]

I believe that this is where a lot of the new thinking about climbing training has been adapted from, in the UK anyway. Aero Cap, An Cap, An Pow, Aero Pow etc.

Interesting thread btw. I am embarking on my first 'proper' training schedule using the above mentioned theories. I've played at it before but never seen it through all the way. I will be interested to see how i manage the intense weeks. I know i don't recover as well as i did 10 years ago ( i just turned 36 ).

I know it's an idea that seems to be going out of fashion now but i find post exercise stretching really helpful for recovery.

[Richie Crouch]

I'm getting inspired by all the vet crankers out there! Must try harder 

[Sasquatch]

I know it's an idea that seems to be going out of fashion now but i find post exercise stretching really helpful for recovery.

Not out of fashion for me.  I stretch most mornings for about 10 min and for about 5-10 after most workouts do a combo of foam roll and stretch.  Big believer.....

[guru]

the reasoning is easely explained (more or less).
in general, the older one gets the longer it takes to recover.
suppose that at 40 years old you are able to recover a long session in 2 days instead of 1 day compared to 20 years before.
if you want to train everyday you should do shorter sessions.. or working different muscles/targets day after day. the fact is that the plan is for Nibile.. and i know that he is so addicted to training that is really impossible to get more than 1 day off.. recovery is like doing some one armer at beastmaker..
on the other hand, we have to consider that one key to improving is to vary. to vary in terms of exercises yes, but also in terms of weeks organization. we will try as ever and we will see.

[ducko]

I'm with crouchy hope I'm crushing at 60!
Also, press ups are good for golfers elbow

[Oldmanmatt]

I know it's an idea that seems to be going out of fashion now but i find post exercise stretching really helpful for recovery.

Not out of fashion for me.  I stretch most mornings for about 10 min and for about 5-10 after most workouts do a combo of foam roll and stretch.  Big believer.....

If I don't stretch before a Sesh and after, I just don't recover.
Never injured myself stretching yet, but I have pulled my groin when I leapt into a bouldering Sesh without stretching.....

[TobyD]

If I don't stretch before a Sesh and after, I just don't recover.
Never injured myself stretching yet, but I have pulled my groin when I leapt into a bouldering Sesh without stretching.....

Some variance is probably introduced by different people's conception of what constitues a 'stretch'. Most of what i've ever seen people do at walls, crags etc is more just light movement, which is fair enough, although gains will be largely psychological rather than physiological, according to much lit on the subject. If it works for you however, it works and that can't be bad.
Actually lengthening tissues prior to activity is likely to increase injury risk, as you partially disable receptors which send useful messages during activity - ie the tiny tweaky feeling that lets you know that stopping now is a good idea before something goes pop. Sorry can't find the paper right now.

[Andy W]

The thing is within this subject there are so many variables...I think ideally I would warm up more if I had the opportunity, often though a boulder problem is isolated on its own with no easy probs near by, plus its cold etc etc so its feels easier to do a few hangs and pull ups and get on with it. The other day I was doing a problem that involved compression type moves so stretched out my legs, hamstrings etc, probably as the last post identified I'd gone to far, thus after a few goes on the problem, pulled a muscle in my groin!

Recovery issues are again hard to identify, it may well be that as we get older it takes longer to recover, but the fact is that for me my standards are higher now and if I did to my younger body what I do now it would break. I'm not really sure what point I'm trying to make, but it seems its like it always is, take advice, get informed, easier now than ever and then listen to your body. This is the crux I guess because if you have been climbing years then listening to ones body should be second nature...funny how easy it is to ignore though!

[Muenchener]

I find i don't need much of a warm up and ironies being whenever I do a lengthy warm up I always injure myself!

As a 50 year old punter I'm still fine tuning my warm up strategy, but for routes I'm also tending towards less is more.

I used to warm up with 3-4 straightforward routes of increasing difficulty. This was too much: especially if the routes were easy but steep I would be in danger of a flash pump / getting too tired too early in the session. Currently I'm doing one or two very easy routes or traverses, then a few boulder problems at about the difficulty of the moves on the routes I’m aiming at. (The starts of slightly harder routes are ideal for this if the wall isn’t too busy and I don’t mind buggering up potential onsights.) Then to work.

For bouldering I do a short (10-15 minutes) ARC and/or just start on very easy problems and ramp the difficulty up after a dozen or so.

I do reasonable amounts of mobility and stretching exercises, primarily because I regard them as essential for basic health and only very secondarily because I think they might benefit my climbing. I generally do them in separate sessions rather than as a warm-up/cool down for climbing sessions, but if I do them at the wall then dynamic mobility before, static stretching after.

Where I am still struggling, having recently bought a beastmaker, is how to warm up adequately/safely for that without access to a bouldering wall.

[slackline]

Where I am still struggling, having recently bought a beastmaker, is how to warm up adequately/safely for that without access to a bouldering wall.

Seen this?