[Probes]

Hey shark, just watching your vid on fb. Just a suggestion of something that you could do, if your after 1 arm hanging strength from flat edge. i used to do it on a campus board with foot on the wall behind it. get a line of rungs up that board of yours (assume its your board in the video) normal campusy width, what 18/20mm. Then with feet on but square on to board, one arm snatch all the way up the rungs, but stick a little finger of your otherhand on the bottom, not really to take weight but to give you more control of your 'torso' so its not shifting all over the place. What i found was it tended to work that open arm, open shoulder position really well, something that is wellard to train just hanging of a board. You'll also get some gains in your fingers as well. Bear in mind its pretty intense but not really the level of old skool double handed campusing, but watch for raging your elbows.   

[Probes]

Btw i reckon resistance wise you should be failing before you hit ten movements.

[shark]

i used to do it on a campus board with foot on the wall behind it. get a line of rungs up that board of yours (assume its your board in the video) normal campusy width, what 18/20mm. Then with feet on but square on to board, one arm snatch all the way up the rungs, but stick a little finger of your otherhand on the bottom, not really to take weight but to give you more control of your 'torso' so its not shifting all over the place. What i found was it tended to work that open arm, open shoulder position really well, something that is wellard to train just hanging of a board.

 

Never heard of this and I can do this on the campus boards at the Edge and Foundry as they have footholds at the back

[Nibile]

i can't remember exactly but i think my progression happened over a few months.

[John Gillott]

The other thing to try might simply be to hang a larger edge with no assistance. Choose one you can manage for a few seconds. When you can manage say eight seconds progress to a smaller edge and try to build up to eight seconds again. IIRC that's what Moon recommended. A fingerboard either at home or at the wall with plenty of different sized holds would do the trick. Or if there are different sized campus rungs at the wall choose the right one and go from there.

Assuming your rock rings' hold sizes are the same as the latest models on the web, you're trying to hang a 3/4 inch edge at the minute (and can you get all four fingers in the hold - they call it a three finger pocket?, which is quite small really. Maybe try one inch?

[shoon]

Might be    a bit but any other tips for shoulder girdle training.. as I find 1 arming on any hold hard..but have no probs with 2 arming and extra weight, also find shouldery moves suit me but as soon as 1 arm needs to go off, and I am streched out max, to go to another hold  (ie. 1 arm needs to hang a long time and take the load) I can't do the move) 
Will have to give the 1 arm campus thing a go...

[slackline]

Might be    a bit but any other tips for shoulder girdle training.. as I find 1 arming on any hold hard..but have no probs with 2 arming and extra weight, also find shouldery moves suit me but as soon as 1 arm needs to go off, and I am streched out max, to go to another hold  (ie. 1 arm needs to hang a long time and take the load) I can't do the move) 
Will have to give the 1 arm campus thing a go...

Isn't perceived wisdom to build up to one-arming gradually using a pully or a tyre inner tube for one hand?

[shoon]

Indeed..  but still out for some extra shoulder girdle stuff..

[Probes]

Indeed..  but still out for some extra shoulder girdle stuff..

sounds like you need to get on a bar and some one arm negatives. get tucked in and drop slowly.

[douglas]

Btw i reckon resistance wise you should be failing before you hit ten movements.

Stupid question but do you move your feet at all during these ten moves? I assume too that some hand moves are down?

Cheers

[Probes]

ha yeah, inspector gadget arm,  yep 5 up 4 down, nothing else needs to move, feet still, opposite hand still.

[douglas]

Thank you Probes.

[Serpico]

Has anyone tested themselves in this way and what are reasonable targets to aim for over what timescales?

I use a set of fishermen's scales hanging next to my fingerboard to measure the amount of assistance I need. I find this eliminates the inaccuracies you get with a pulley system because of the friction of the pulley, and because you're using your free arm to pull down on the scales it requires less stabilization from the shoulder you're hanging on than the other method where you stand on a set of scales.
In my case shoulders are the limiting factor with one arm deadhangs, any weak link in the kinetic chain will inhibit the entire chain - the fingers can't hang what the shoulder can't stabilize. A quick unscientific test last night using a weight belt, and using my other hand to stabilise the hang, but taking off less weight than added by the weight belt, showed that a hold that I can only just hang briefly one armed I can actually hang reasonably comfortably with extra weight if I use my other hand for stabilization. Of course this won't be the same for everyone, but it's worth ruling out shoulder weakness when assessing one arm strength.
As for time scales, as you well know - everyone is different.

Is this level of Right/Left discrepancy common?

Probably, I've got a significant LR difference.

I'd think the difference between rock rings and a fixed edge might be a lot more than you're expecting.

I've no evidence for this, but a rockring might actually need less stabilization because when you start to rotate on a fixed edge you have to stabilize your body against the spin, with a rockring the hold should rotate with you, so no stabilization needed, maybe...

From what I've seen you've been climbing well this year, I can't really see why benchmarking matters; do you really give a shit if you can't hang an edge with one arm if/when you've done the Oak? I doubt it.

I think benchmarking is a big deal - if you're going to put a lot of effort into an exercise you need to test 1RM periodically to make sure that it's working, if it's not you either need to change your rep/weights or ditch it. On another level I like the idea of quantifying the average strength levels needed to climb a specific grade; so for instance if you want to climb 8a you'll (on average) need to be able to deadhang an edge xcm, that isn't to say that like the recent Beastmaker feats thread that deadhanging x = 8a, just that if you have that finger strength then it's some other element of strength and/or technique that you need to focus on.
This sort of benchmarking is common in other sports but the only person I know who's attempted it for climbing is Heather Sagar in her book 'Climbing Your Best', and the test and test methods she chose were deeply flawed.

[Probes]

.....any weak link in the kinetic chain will inhibit the entire chain - the fingers can't hang what the shoulder can't stabilize.

spot on serpico thats well worth pointing out, its easy to get lost in building finger strength when you aint got the ship to control it. Something i always used to do a lot in campus board days was hang one arm from a bar and just rotate back and forth, quite quick but controlled whilst making chimp noises, thought it was stretching my shoulders but later realised it helped a lot with those strange stability positions in the shoulder?

[Paul B]

I've no evidence for this, but a rockring might actually need less stabilization because when you start to rotate on a fixed edge you have to stabilize your body against the spin, with a rockring the hold should rotate with you, so no stabilization needed, maybe...

I'm not sold on this, everything I've ever done on a set of rings (one or two armed) has been far harder than doing so on a static bar.

[Serpico]

I'm not sold on this, everything I've ever done on a set of rings (one or two armed) has been far harder than doing so on a static bar.

It might not be the case, I don't have a set of rockrings any more to test, but when comparing ring exercises there's a big difference between the rings supporting the load (like ring pushups) which are very unstable, and exercises where the load is suspended from the rings (deadhangs and pullups) where the instability is less.

[Paul B]

I don't have a set of rockrings any more to test, but when comparing ring exercises there's a big difference between the rings supporting the load (like ring pushups) which are very unstable, and exercises where the load is suspended from the rings (deadhangs and pullups) where the instability is less.

Certainly, however my experience of rockrings is that you really have to fight to avoid punching yourself in the face by accident.

[shark]

The results from the foundry beastmaker are now in.

Holding the bottom rail: Right arm + 7.25kg (failed at 5kg) Left arm 10.5kg (failed at 8.75kg)

This compares to the bottom rung of the rock ring as stated in the OP: Right arm +11.25kg Left arm +17.5kg.

Whether the improvement is down to the instability of the rock ring or that the edge on the Beastmaker is easier to hold or a combination of the two or the planets being misaligned I don't know.

Main thing for me is that the dream seems much more attainable. 

[miso soup]

After reading a summary of Dave Macleod's Master's thesis on the web...

Wouldn't mind reading this, do you have a link?

[highrepute]

The results from the foundry beastmaker are now in.

Holding the bottom rail: Right arm + 7.25kg (failed at 5kg) Left arm 10.5kg (failed at 8.75kg)

This compares to the bottom rung of the rock ring as stated in the OP: Right arm +11.25kg Left arm +17.5kg.

Whether the improvement is down to the instability of the rock ring or that the edge on the Beastmaker is easier to hold or a combination of the two or the planets being misaligned I don't know.

Main thing for me is that the dream seems much more attainable. 

why don't you test some other chumps while you're down the foundry. be interesting to get a few peeps measured and compare their maximal finger strength to their bouldering or route grade.

[lukeinaz]

Any one have data for the Moon Board?  This is all very interesting.  Benchmarks are great!

[abarro81]

Mark: I can hold things one handed. Jugs.

[Muenchener]

Is this level of Right/Left discrepancy common?

I was thinking about this thread yesterday whilst doing more Being A Dad than Climbing Lots, namely building the foundation for the new rabbit hutch. In the course of which I discovered that, while I can pinch a 14kg paving slab with my right hand and carry it around the garden for several metres quite comfortably, I can barely hold one under control with my left.

Fortunately due to an estimation error I have a spare slab left over to train with ...

[John Gillott]

After reading a summary of Dave Macleod's Master's thesis on the web...

Wouldn't mind reading this, do you have a link?

I've had a quick search but couldn't find it. I'll look around some more tomorrow.

Or maybe email him directly?

[shark]

Is it this?:

"Physiological determinants of climbing-specific finger endurance and sport rock climbing performance"

It's available as a payable download on a couple of sites.