[shark]

The weakness of my maximal figer strength was rammed home (again) at a coaching benchmarking session I had with Tommy 5 weeks ago. I have been deadhanging regularly since then and thought I was making progress. Having rigged up a counterweight system with free weights, a pulley and an etrier I have just tested what I can hold for 4 secondsish on the bottom rung of a rock ring and the results are very disappointing especially considering I feel stronger than I've ever felt.

Current weight 72.6kg. Right arm +11.25kg Left arm +17.5kg. I'm so ashamed.

Tommy's test was on a similar edge and I recorded 10kg so taking into account that there will be a difference in the rigs it would seem that I've stood still, at best. Even if I've improved in absolute terms the scores are appalling.
Anyway my questions are:

Has anyone tested themselves in this way and what are reasonable targets to aim for over what timescales?
Will I ever deadhang a single joint edge ?
Is this level of Right/Left discrepancy common?
Any tips for getting stronger at this ? (apart from losing weight  )
Am I obsessing about the wrong thing ?
Should I give up climbing and take up ledge shuffling in Wales or something. ?

[Paul B]

I'd think the difference between rock rings and a fixed edge might be a lot more than you're expecting.

[Dexter]

I'd think the difference between rock rings and a fixed edge might be a lot more than you're expecting.

ie buy a beastmaker 
also to answer will you ever be able to hang a single joint edge yes... so long as you believe you will be able to

[shark]

I'd think the difference between rock rings and a fixed edge might be a lot more than you're expecting.

They seem stable when I do the hang. Maybe I should break into Tommy's shed seeing he is in the US and retest myself.

[John Gillott]

After reading a summary of Dave Macleod's Master's thesis on the web (I think it was his thesis; might have been something else by him), which dealt with the relationship between the very thing you are testing and max sport grade (he found that there was a good correlation) I was surprised at how weak all his subjects appeared to be compared with the grade they were climbing. So much so that I thought I must have misunderstood it. I emailed him querying his experimental setup and the like. After a bit of back and forth he asked me to test myself and report back. His delightful putdown was that I was way too strong for the grade I was climbing.

So, there you are Shark, you're way too weak for the grade you're climbing.

[Paul B]

They seem stable when I do the hang.

Because your stabilisers are working hard. One might say harder than on a fixed edge 

If you're going to try to benchmark then do it off something that is constant or about as constant as you can possibly get. A campus rung for instance, or a BM edge.

So, there you are Shark, you're way too weak for the grade you're climbing.

I think he rather likes the idea of that.

[shark]

They seem stable when I do the hang.

Because your stabilisers are working hard. One might say harder than on a fixed edge 

If you're going to try to benchmark then do it off something that is constant or about as constant as you can possibly get. A campus rung for instance, or a BM edge.

So, there you are Shark, you're way too weak for the grade you're climbing.

I think he rather likes the idea of that.

What ? Being accused of lying ?   

Will re-try on a fixed edge and report back.

[John Gillott]

I 'hop' into the hang. In other words, both hands on a different edge, slight dynamic move with the hand you want to hang off onto the edge, then release the other hand. I perform better when I do this - some kind of recruitment issue? Either way, perhaps a better comparison with the kind of max strength move you'd use on rock?

[shark]

I 'hop' into the hang. In other words, both hands on a different edge, slight dynamic move with the hand you want to hang off onto the edge, then release the other hand. I perform better when I do this - some kind of recruitment issue? Either way, perhaps a better comparison with the kind of max strength move you'd use on rock?

This is what I do too although the usual (sensible?) deadhanging advice is to gradually load the fingers. I'm struggling to download that Dave Mac stuff. Do you recall the benchmarks?

[John Gillott]

Sorry, not in detail, no. I do have a vague memory of most of them not being able to hold their own weight though, and the top end of the group were 8a / 8a+ climbers. His set up IIRC was a horizontal bench with a hold on a piece of wood that could slide on a groove in the bench. It was attached to weights via a pulley on the edge of the bench. So somewhat different from yours. Perhaps his was better at isolating the fingers. But given that you can do a one arm lock comfortably enough your setup should be isolating your fingers in any case.

[Beegsyboy]

Current weight 72.6kg. Right arm +11.25kg Left arm +17.5kg. I'm so ashamed.

Sorry for being daft, but is this the weight taken off your body weight? Or total weight?

[shark]

Current weight 72.6kg. Right arm +11.25kg Left arm +17.5kg. I'm so ashamed.

Sorry for being daft, but is this the weight taken off your body weight? Or total weight?

Taken off. So in theory (ie if stabilisers aren't affecting the result) my deadhanging strength gripping an edge with right hand only is:
72.6kg - 11.25 kg = 61.35kg

I guess you could do it more directly with a rock ring attached to a weight pull-down machine in the gym   

[Paul B]

don't neglect the pulley assistance. I think Nige tested the school assistance pulley and found it was giving around 7kg by itself!

[Fultonius]

How does your 2-arm maximum compare to your 1-arm maximum?

The reason I ask is (if I'm not mistaken Paul?) that it might not be your fingers that are the weak point in your 1-arm deadhanging!  You need quite a strong shoulder girdle to be able to hang off a small edge one-handed.

Try loading up with weights and see how much you can hang 2-armed, if it's quite a lot mroe than twice your 1-arm then you might have relatively weak shoulders.

This is just a theory of mine, so others with more training knowledge may want to add to, or shred to pieces that thought! 

[shark]

Good point but its pretty slick (petzl traxion) on a thin piece of static cord. Might take it down the foundry - IIRC there are rings in the beam by the Beastmaker. If not I can screw one in.   

[Paul B]

(if I'm not mistaken Paul?)

Sorry, I wouldn't know.

Am I obsessing about the wrong thing ?

I think you are, yes.

From what I've seen you've been climbing well this year, I can't really see why benchmarking matters; do you really give a shit if you can't hang an edge with one arm if/when you've done the Oak? I doubt it.

Or do you think hanging an edge one armed is a sure sign that the oak is within reach? Again, I doubt it.

Something else?

(it was a petzl fixe we were using)

[shark]

Try loading up with weights and see how much you can hang 2-armed, if it's quite a lot mroe than twice your 1-arm then you might have relatively weak shoulders.

This is just a theory of mine, so others with more training knowledge may want to add to, or shred to pieces that thought!

I'll give the weighted hang a go.

[Nibile]

as I've said before, I broke my left collarbone as a boy, and it never healed properly. it still has a big ridge where the fracture was and it's shaped in a completely different way than the right one. it's also a bit higher that the right one.
I think this is why my left deltoid has a different shape in its posterior part than the right one, a kind of hole or anyway less muscle.
my shoulders are strong in the gym, but one arm dead hangs seem to highlight my left shoulder weakness, and therefore I can't hang or pull as I'd like.
also aside from this, I'd say that the difference is normal.
I'd also say that you are stressing about the wrong thing!!!
but I can absolutely sympathize with you.
in the very end, what is climbing if not a preparation for feats of strength on small wooden rungs?
 
I agree about testing on fixed stuff.
when in Florence, I hade the BM on the door frame. one arm dead hangs were very hard because the body could not move freely to get into balance. I moved to Siena, put the BM under the wall with plenty of room to move and... ta daaa.
they are still hard. but less hard.

[shark]

Am I obsessing about the wrong thing ?

I think you are, yes.

From what I've seen you've been climbing well this year, I can't really see why benchmarking matters; do you really give a shit if you can't hang an edge with one arm if/when you've done the Oak? I doubt it.

Or do you think hanging an edge one armed is a sure sign that the oak is within reach? Again, I doubt it.

Something else?

No its not about the Oak - training for that is going really well- it's something far more important - life after the Oak and stupid feats of strength. I'm joking. Kind of. If it maximal finger strength that is genuinely the weak link then I should make training for it an absolute priority to the virtual exclusion of everything else that might impede gains in this one area. I doubt it is that important but I do thing it is more of a priority than I have been making it along with aerobic capacity which were the lessons I took on board from Tommy in our last session.

[John Gillott]

Come on, confess: your main goal is the one arm pull up on a first joint edge. You spent a couple of years getting solid on the one armer on a bar; now you're working the fingers with the target of hanging the edge by Christmas. You're hoping to piece the two together in 2012 or 2013.

[shark]

Come on, confess: your main goal is the one arm pull up on a first joint edge. You spent a couple of years getting solid on the one armer on a bar; now you're working the fingers with the target of hanging the edge by Christmas. You're hoping to piece the two together in 2012 or 2013.

You might think that; I couldn't possibly comment

[Nibile]

anyway respect the weight you have to take off. when i started one arm dead hangs i was using a 2 cm edge and i had to take off 17 and 20 kg right and left. each session i progressed a bit and eventually i one armed the hold. and i am lighter than you. so keep your head down and your faith up and get back to it if it's what you want!

[shark]

anyway respect the weight you have to take off. when i started one arm dead hangs i was using a 2 cm edge and i had to take off 17 and 20 kg right and left. each session i progressed a bit and eventually i one armed the hold. and i am lighter than you. so keep your head down and your faith up and get back to it if it's what you want!

I do, I do.

How long did this progression take you?

[Three Nine]

If you feel strong on the Oak, then surely it will be totally irrelevant? I can barely hold anything one armed and I think this has to do with shoulder stuff, and presumably that will be way worse on a dangly thing like a rock ring.

For what its worth - and I know you don't like it, but the three biggest things you need to address are:

1. leaving your clipstick at home (or at least on the floor!)
2. not saying take all the time
3. going bouldering on limestone

Feel free to rip me apart 

[Three Nine]

Plus fatty Barrows cant hold anything one-armed and he done 8c innit.