[T_B]

Love or loathe UKC their database is a stroke of genius and must be invaluable for Rockfax.

... and it's taken years of effort and no doubt 10s of thousands of pounds to get it to where it is. I use sites such as Peakbouldering.info, but I don't bother logging anything on there.

[tomtom]

Key idea here is establishing a common format for the data and this bases? Sounds like something important and over-arching.. BMC?

[slackline]

Actually there is, http://www.theshortspan.com/newproblemdatabase/newproblemdatabase.php, it's just for recording new problems but it has been running a few years. Just a few lines of php.

Sorry, hadn't come across that before, looks good, and I've added a link to it on the Wiki page here (as well as to your guide).

[Paul B]

... and it's taken years of effort and no doubt 10s of thousands of pounds to get it to where it is. I use sites such as Peakbouldering.info, but I don't bother logging anything on there.

Absolutely, but it started somewhere and it has its limitations.

Key idea here is establishing a common format for the data and this bases? Sounds like something important and over-arching.. BMC?

As things progress you'd imagine something like this would be a lot more workable than scripts.

[rginns]

How many of those had a community attached?

There's quite a lot of people on here who are keen about:
Peak Bouldering
Yorkshire Bouldering
Yorkshire Sport
Peak Sport
North Wales Bouldering
North Wales Lime
Lancashire Bouldering
etc etc

[petejh]

The reason UKC's logbook is so widely used is because it comes with the rest of UKC attached - news, a busy forum, gear for sale, adverts etc etc etc. Despite UKC being 90% utter shit, the whole package of features in one place is attractive to lots of punters climbers.

Standalone databases are destined to be ignored by most. I can't be arsed going to NW lime database, then going to Peak Bouldering database, then going to blah de blah etc etc etc .....


Both the BMC website or UKB would benefit from a good, extensive route/boulder database.

If the BMC adopted it they'd also need to develop a good forum to compliment their, so-far excellent, video and news content. If they didn't do this then I don't believe they drive enough people to their site to make the database work as well as UKC's. But impartiality and moderation of the forum etc etc might be political. The best thing BMC could do is buy out UKB and attach it to BMC website whilst leaving it independent of BMC opinion and politics.

or

UKB could get serious and try to develop a database. Time, money and no guarantee it'd pay off.

[Bonjoy]

I think Bleau.info and UKC have proved a database can and will be maintained mostly by users IF it is useful.

I agree, but even in these cases there needed to be a huge initial input by the site. No user is going to start populating a DB which doesn't have a fair chunk of complete material in it already.

I'm a bit undecided as to whether a tight geographical remit is better than an unlimited one. I suspect it is, at least to start with. There are a bunch of failed or moribund unlimited databases out there already.

I think the best bet is to start limited and specific but structure the thing in such a way that it is not limited to the initial remit and can be expanded with minimal modification when/if it has generated a demand and proved its usefulness. Ultimately though a site covering a small area really well is better than a sprawling thing which is more holes than substance.

In all of the above pb.info got it right, however it got a lot of other stuff wrong and that's why people have stopped updating it. As such it would be a useful lesson to any DB setting up. The main problems I see are:
- Users are too limited in how they can edit. They can't even delete a duplicate entry for instance, or re-order a butress.
- There is no notice board on the site. This should be at the front of the site. For users to trust that the site is worth their time they need to have a public place to ask things of the site admin and get prompt answers.
- Major issues of dysfunctionality remain unfixed months/years after being pointed out to the admin. If it looks like the site owner isn't bothered about the site why would a user risk wasting their time being bothered?
- Running a DB for the long term seems like a lot of work and hassle, so it's probably best if more than one person knows the in's and outs of the site. Again, if a site looks vulnerable to sudden loss of interest by it's creator and subsequent demise, why would a potential user risk wasting time on it?

Other things which would help would be some endorsement from beasts/respected climbers, some publicity (at least initially), attachment to an already well used site and some input from a good web designer so it looks quite nice.

To my mind this all points to a collaboration between a potential DB creator plus either UKB, the BMC, or preferably both. The more credible the thing looks the more users will use it and at the end of the day that's what makes these things good, lots of active users.

[slackline]

  good, thought out and valid points Bonjoy, particularly the aspect of designing something that expands beyond a given region (and theres no actual reason why either peakbouldering.info or yorkshiregrit.com or any of the other existing sites in their present format couldn't be expanded to include additional areas).

The one thing I would add/say is...

- Users are too limited in how they can edit. They can't even delete a duplicate entry for instance, or re-order a butress.

Careful thought should be given to how much users can edit.  Things can get very messy, very quickly if users have free for-all to change everything.  UKC have volunteer moderators for crags and I think this is a really useful thing since it engenders a sense of responsibility and care for the write-up of their local haunt, and if any resource were to be developed as a consequence of this thread I think it would benefit from this too.  Primarily because they might be more familiar with their local crag than a visitor who added an entry with some inaccuracies.

[r-man]

- Users are too limited in how they can edit. They can't...re-order a buttress.

Actually that one has been fixed. Progress is slow, but Gareth is still keen to improve peakbouldering.info. Hopefully at some point it will do all the things we want it to. I realise it has been years in the making and has its flaws, but even as it stands I think it's a great resource and seems to be well used.

[Bonjoy]

good, thought out and valid points Bonjoy, particularly the aspect of designing something that expands beyond a given region (and theres no actual reason why either peakbouldering.info or yorkshiregrit.com or any of the other existing sites in their present format couldn't be expanded to include additional areas).

The one thing I would add/say is...

- Users are too limited in how they can edit. They can't even delete a duplicate entry for instance, or re-order a butress.

Careful thought should be given to how much users can edit.  Things can get very messy, very quickly if users have free for-all to change everything.  UKC have volunteer moderators for crags and I think this is a really useful thing since it engenders a sense of responsibility and care for the write-up of their local haunt, and if any resource were to be developed as a consequence of this thread I think it would benefit from this too.  Primarily because they might be more familiar with their local crag than a visitor who added an entry with some inaccuracies.

Agree. Two tiers of user updaters should solve that one. UKC effectively have this with the crag moderators and standard inputers. Yeah otherwise a malicious user could come in one night and delete half the DB.

- Users are too limited in how they can edit. They can't...re-order a buttress.

Actually that one has been fixed. Progress is slow, but Gareth is still keen to improve peakbouldering.info. Hopefully at some point it will do all the things we want it to. I realise it has been years in the making and has its flaws, but even as it stands I think it's a great resource and seems to be well used.

It would be good if pb.info did get properly sorted as it would make life easier not having to re-enter the same info into a new site. I do appreciate the effort Gareth has put in on the site but I do think he needs help if he's ever going to get the site up to scratch. There's a lot needs doing to it and it's not all techy stuff. Just fixing a few bugs is not going to convince new users to start updating, or ex-users to start bothering again.

[rginns]

Agree. Two tiers of user updaters should solve that one. UKC effectively have this with the crag moderators and standard inputers. Yeah otherwise a malicious user could come in one night and delete half the DB.

Tiered user access rights is definitely the way to go.
Periodic and automatic database back ups would be easy to organise and implement to avoid malicious deletions.

[slackline]

Periodic and automatic database back ups would be easy to organise and implement to avoid malicious deletions.

Backup....EVERYTHING, ALWAYS.

[Paul B]

Tiered user access rights is definitely the way to go.
Periodic and automatic database back ups would be easy to organise and implement to avoid malicious deletions.

That, and just log every change made into a table of its own so you can reverse it or even leave it pending to be approved by a moderator etc..

I haven't thought about this at all btw.

[Offwidth]

Only just seen the bad news (being too busy with YMC scripts maybe?). While the medium future options are being weighed it would be great if the site could be transferred and rehosted somewhere else pretty much as is. If funding assistance was needed Im sure a few folk here could help.  Id strongly support UKB doing this as I suspect the BMC structures wont be flexible enough for anything quick beyond funding support ( even though I'd love to be proved wrong). This is an important resource.

[slackline]

I tweeted Jon on Tuesday 2013-01-07 @ 09:58...

@jp2598 hi, was wondering if lack of funds is why you've wound up http://yorkshiregrit.com  ? would you consider others taking over the site?

No reply yet (not that that means anything).

[tommytwotone]

Nice one Slackers...for what it's worth I've DM'd Jon to the same effect. Would be happy to underwrite the revive / refresh as appropriate if Jon would be prepared to part with the data.

[SA Chris]

I've dropped Francis a message too seeing if he can contact Jon.

[slackline]

I tweeted Jon on Tuesday 2013-01-07 @ 09:58...

@jp2598 hi, was wondering if lack of funds is why you've wound up http://yorkshiregrit.com  ? would you consider others taking over the site?

No reply yet (not that that means anything).

No reply and I doubt I'll ever get one.  Anyone else heard back?


Wikiboulder.com could be a promising solution, but as always hinges on user input.  Good work fatneck on starting the Porth Ysgo entry, not sure why Yarncliffe has made it in before any of the other bouldering venues in the Peak District (only a handful of boulder problems there).

[fatneck]

And a very limited grade spread apparently

[SA Chris]

Francis did actually reply and said he and Jon were both aware of this thread, but neither intended responding.

[tommytwotone]

That's a shame - an opportunity missed in my opinion, I'd certainly have liked to have been involved with taking over / the resurrection / improvement of the site. Was happy to come to a financial agreement re: the data as well.

[slackline]

Francis did actually reply and said he and Jon were both aware of this thread, but neither intended responding.

Any indication or mention of whether Jon was willing to pass on or sell the data within the site?

[SA Chris]

He didn't say.

[slackline]

Sounds like its a lost cause . 

I guess people will have to rely on the mirrors in archive.org

[Johnny Brown]

Was happy to come to a financial agreement re: the data as well

If someone was to make a concrete offer of hard cash I daresay it might at least get a response