[douglas]

I currently climb about 5 times a week. Mainly indoor bouldering, some system bouldering (perhaps 2 half sessions a week targeting fingers), some real rock climbing.

For the last year I've been thinking that my fingers are a relative weak point however I also thought that the indoor bouldering would address that. But it doesn't seem to. Can it? Should it? What do I need to do to ensure that it does? Do I need to add in or replace some climbing with fingerboarding? Is fingerboarding magic?

Psyched,
Doug

[tomtom]

It might help train your percieved weakness of finger strength - but if you're climbing 5 times a week - I would suggest you dont have any room to do any fingerboarding, without causing yourself an injury...

Climbing is better training than fingerboarding IMHO.. but if you really want to work on finger strength try just climbing really small hold fingery problems - or drop a session or two at the wall and do some hanging!

[shark]

I also thought that the indoor bouldering would address that. But it doesn't seem to. Can it? Should it?

If you are pulling hard and hanging small holds and latching others then it should do. Have you benchmarked your finger strength between now and then or is it just perception? The gains are typically small and incremental. 

[douglas]

Thank you for the insight.

I typically shy away from much less than half a pad indoors because my skin is very soft.

I also did a very basic finger strength test last year standing on some scales and pulling with single fingers. It would be worth me digging that out and trying again (will do tonight).

The reason I think fingers are a weakness are that my friends who I climb and train with mostly climb a plus grade harder than me on limestone routes. They burn me off indoors if the holds are small, however I can boulder harder if the holds are big. I can also campus more moves on jugs (get in!!!).

[tomtom]

Different folks are better at different types of probs/routes..

[douglas]

Different folks are better at different types of probs/routes..

Yes, but I want to get better at fingery power endurance limestone...

[Paul B]

The gains are typically small and incremental.

Whereas I'd say fingerboarding the gains appear relatively quickly although the blood supply to back it up takes longer and probably means that there's high injury potential in the period following? [N.B. total speculation].

[slackline]

Different folks are better at different types of probs/routes..

Yes, but I want to get better at fingery power endurance limestone...

Ergo...climb fingery power endurance limestone (routes/problems indoors)!

[shark]

I typically shy away from much less than half a pad indoors because my skin is very soft.

 

The reason I think fingers are a weakness are that my friends who I climb and train with mostly climb a plus grade harder than me on limestone routes. They burn me off indoors if the holds are small, however I can boulder harder if the holds are big. I can also campus more moves on jugs (get in!!!).

  

If you avoid fingery holds and are drawn to juggy problems then it's small wonder that your fingers aren't getting significantly stronger or your skin tougher.

[shark]

The gains are typically small and incremental.

Whereas I'd say fingerboarding the gains appear relatively quickly

Quick gains if they occur are likely to be neural/recruitment. Strength/muscle gains take longer.     

[Fultonius]

Then get out on some fingery power endurance limestone!

I'm not being arsey here, but it's a fact that the more you climb on your target medium (i.e. crimpy lime) the better you'll get.

One thing I've realised this year after being majorly injured: - while I'm waaay weaker than I was before I stopped, especially indoors, I'm close to redpointing a route a full grade harder than I managed when I was at my strongest. Indoors I'm flailing on Fr7a and my outdoor project is Fr8a. I spent a long time thinking that I was much weaker than all the guys n gals I saw out on the rock achieving, when, in fact, I was just nowhere near as "good".

Don't get me wrong, including some fingerboard into your trianing will get your fingers stronger, but it might not address the other issues.  Rather than replacing a climbing session with a fingerboard one, try this:

Warm up, then spend 1 hour bouldering focussing on footwork, body position, movement. Give up trying to get to the top of problems, give up competing (with yourself or others) and focus on improvement. Repeat problem you can do, but do them BETTER.  Then beast yourself on the fingerboard.

Just my £0.02

[nai]

Give up trying to get to the top of problems, give up competing (with yourself or others) and focus on improvement.

This is the important thing to remember when climbing for training, you're working weaknesses, there's no point switching into performance mode and spending all your time on a problem that suits your strengths.

The answer as ever is probably a combination of the two

[Fultonius]

I know - I get caught up in that all the time 

Obviously it's good to do some of the time as it breaks up the training and gives a motivation boost, but it's easy to get caught up in a loop of always trying.  This winter I'm going to attempt to be as focussed on "training and improvement" as I can manage!

[douglas]

Thank you all for these replies. They are invaluable to me. Firstly I think I'm justified in bouldering or thinking about fingerboarding if my interest is power endurance. 800m athletes do not train for 800m by running 800m, they incorporate sprints and long runs.

Skin is perhaps an issue but maybe it's just an excuse. Super crimpy problems just shred my skin, there's not much I can do to change that. I do however climb on steeper stuff that's one pad. I hoped this would provide enough stimulus to strengthen the fingers? I realise now that what I don't do is stick with open grips. If I can go thumb over and pull through, I invariably do.

[cheque]

The advantage I find of fingerboarding over indoor bouldering is that you don't fall off a fingerboard- if your fingers can't handle any longer on a thin hold then you just put your feet on the floor whereas on an indoor problem you go flying, often tweaking your fingers in the process..

There's also no other factor limiting your ability to use small holds whereas failing due to footwork/ technique/ body tension issues can limit the time your fingers are being trained on thin indoor problems. 

I find the best combination is just to climb on rock as much as possible and supplement it with pure training (fingerboard, core etc.) and just forget about indoor bouldering. Climbing on plastic doesn't seem to make me any better at rock climbing or be that practical for working specific physical weaknesses.
 
I hope that's of use!

[douglas]

I find the best combination is just to climb on rock as much as possible and supplement it with pure training (fingerboard, core etc.) and just forget about indoor bouldering. Climbing on plastic doesn't seem to make me any better at rock climbing or be that practical for working specific physical weaknesses.
 
I hope that's of use!

Good advice. Thanks.

[Fultonius]

What kinda grade are you climbing/projecting?

You say your mates are 1/2 grade above you, but is this 6a/6a+ or 8b/8b+ - the reason I'm asking is it alters the advice...

[douglas]

8a/8a+.

I redid the basic 'scales and pull' test last night that I first did 10 months ago. Spread over four fingers my right hand can pull an extra 4 kg whereas the left hand has increased by 12 kg, spread over 4 fingers. The left is now catching up and is just 10 kg behind the right. So my finger strength has increased over 10 months. Good. Are these gains reasonable? However I still think this is a relative weakness compared to other aspects of my climbing strength.

I'm beginning to understand the benefit of stepping back and taking the performance hit so that weaknesses are worked. Fingers have responded to training but not as well as other body parts, so not as well as they could. This is a positive.

As an aside, standing on scales and pulling with single fingers, adding the weight lifted for each finger comes to less than I can pull with 4 finges at once. Why is this?

Thanks.

[slackline]

As an aside, standing on scales and pulling with single fingers, adding the weight lifted for each finger comes to less than I can pull with 4 finges at once. Why is this?

Synergism

[douglas]

As an aside, standing on scales and pulling with single fingers, adding the weight lifted for each finger comes to less than I can pull with 4 finges at once. Why is this?

Synergism

"synergy: the working together of two things to produce an effect greater than the sum of their individual effects"

Thanks. For me it's the opposite! Say I can pull 20kg, 30kg, 25kg, 15kg on isolated fingers. This adds up to 90kg. I weigh 75kg. But I can't hang from one hand!

[Krank]

Thanks. For me it's the opposite! Say I can pull 20kg, 30kg, 25kg, 15kg on isolated fingers. This adds up to 90kg. I weigh 75kg. But I can't hang from one hand!

this has come up before and i think it was Serpico who said he had the same problem, i think it was solved by doing some weights targeted at the back. i did a search but cant find the thread to link to.

[Fultonius]

8a/8a+.

  Kinda assumed you were more of a punter...

Ok, well, what kind of probelms do you normally train on indoors? Does the wall you climb at tend to set "safe" routes with big moves and comfy holds?

When you fall off routes that your mates get up are you pumped or can you just not make the moves?

Can you do some long crimpy circuits for training? Or train with weights? (i.e. weight belt)

Have you tried filming your attempts at routes and analysing your errors?

There's probably people more knowledgable about training for >8a on here than me...

[Fultonius]

Thanks. For me it's the opposite! Say I can pull 20kg, 30kg, 25kg, 15kg on isolated fingers. This adds up to 90kg. I weigh 75kg. But I can't hang from one hand!

this has come up before and i think it was Serpico who said he had the same problem, i think it was solved by doing some weights targeted at the back. i did a search but cant find the thread to link to.

It could be partly to do with a weakness in the shoulder girdle (a guess) but it might also be down to the fact that when you measure each individual finger it will bein the its most anotomically efficient position. When using all four the pinky and index fingers will be more open-handed than the middle and ring and therefore not all fingers will be functioning at 100% when used together.

[slackline]

As an aside, standing on scales and pulling with single fingers, adding the weight lifted for each finger comes to less than I can pull with 4 finges at once. Why is this?

Synergism

"synergy: the working together of two things to produce an effect greater than the sum of their individual effects"

Thanks. For me it's the opposite! Say I can pull 20kg, 30kg, 25kg, 15kg on isolated fingers. This adds up to 90kg. I weigh 75kg. But I can't hang from one hand!

Its likely due to the fact that fingers don't work in isolation.  You might be pulling on one finger and lifting 20kg, but not all of that work is done by the finger itself, there are other muscles in the arm that will be pulling too.  Those other muscles will also play a role in pulling 30kg with the next finger and 25kg with the one after that.

[Krank]

found it

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,10876.msg200539/topicseen.html#msg200539