[jstrongman]

Like the title says, what tactics do people find the most effective for working problems at or near their limit?

[ducko]

i find its always handy too watch other people also try the problem so you can get different ideas for beta and see which one suites you the best (this has helped me a few times)

[heelhookofglory]

Sleep on it. Not literally of course. Try it, try it loads more times and then go home and sleep. Let your mind work out the moves when you're sleeping -- works sometimes

[rginns]

watch others is a good idea, but I also work each move separately if I can instead of repeating the move I know I can already do. Not always possible with a tall problem... Then link them together somehow.

[account_inactive]

i find its always handy too watch other people also try the problem so you can get different ideas for beta and see which one suites you the best (this has helped me a few times)

This is known in the business as 'doing a Parry' 

[jstrongman]

I find it interesting that a typical description from the pros of how they climb a problem goes something like this

 "had a session working the moves... then next session (or somethines even the same session)... linked it job done 8B!! "

 but how do they go from hardly being able to move, to linking a series of hard move so quickly?

[Jaspersharpe]

Because they are very strong and good at climbing rocks. £5 please.

It's having the power to link the moves.

[jstrongman]

Yeah they are strong how do you link moves so quickly, which are near their limit! In a session at that level how many goes do goes do you get before powering out and/or skin destroyed?

So my question is really I suppose it what can you do to make the most efficent use of your time to tick a problem?

[Richie Crouch]

Get massively stronger than the problems to have a greater chance of a fast ascent and climb a lot on similar rock/problems to get your skin in good nick and build the required cupboard full of movement skills/engrams? 

[tomtom]

Working and then linking sections is important, as you learn to use the minimum effort for a section when you have it wired. This leaves you with beans in the tank for the next section. Familiarisation with parts of the Problem allows you to relax on them. It's also important to try the 'easier' moves after a crux, else you can do the hard part then get freaked out by the ending!

I take lots of rests. Typically 3 tries with a 2 min break in between , then a 5-10 min break then another 2-3 tries etc.. Put your normal shoes on when resting to force you to rest longer.

If it ain't happening for one reason or another, keep practicing the moves even though you won't succeed that go. It's all money in the bank.

[moose]

My own tactics for long sieges of problems that are frankly a bit too ambitious:

- establish what the crux is and devote serious time to working it in isolation.  One you can do the crux, you can dare to dream!  If, after prolonged work, you're still unable to do the crux on its own... maybe best to reconsider the target (or beg for better beta).

- use any easy sections as a warm-up / warm-down for sessions.  Make sure the non-crux sections are wired, especially if they're after the crux, even if they appear utterly trivial.  The last thing you want to happen is to finally climb through the crux and have a brain spasm and fall off more from confusion than fatigue.

- Once you are ready for the "red-point" sessions, don't waste energy with massively prolonged warm-ups.  If possible, use any easy sections of the target problem to get warmed-up and reacquaint yourself with the sequence.  Most important advice for actual red-point attempts is to REST plenty between efforts.  I find this especially important for long, route-style problems - big traverses etc.  Don't be tempted to leap back on - it's generally a waste of skin and energy.  Have a good rest: 10-15mins at least, or there's the risk of next time getting through the hard section and falling off the easy bit ... very bad for the mojo.  Personally, as I generally boulder alone, I take a book or cryptic crossword with me to provide inter-attempt distraction and encourage a good sit down (yes... that's me...).

[JohnM]

Is that what you did on Pit of Hell Rich 

[jstrongman]

Yeah resting is really difficult when you are on your own I typically throw myself at a problem until i am completely trashed (whilst knowing forewell that I am not resting enough  ).

I have rescently though done some of hardest 1 session ticks (<7B+) by leaving the problem,  going and finding a similar but shitter hold than the one I am using on the problem, and just hang off it. Then after a short rest when returning to the problem hey presto the hold feels better and I can make progress.  Does anyone have any other tips for working a crux quicker?

[JohnM]

Like Moose said when it comes to the 'red point' the most common mistake people make is they don't rest long enough.  Some people don't even take their boots off between their first attempt and their final attempt when performance has gone so far downhill it is pointless proceeding.  However, knowing how long to rest, especially when it is cold is hard and there is a fine line between being well rested but still fully recruited for the problem and being really cold.  Another factor when the problem is near your limit is the conditions and having the patience to wait for the evening/cloud/breeze etc.  This is something I am trying to apply to routes this year.  For example, I turned up at Malham at 11am last sunday but didn't have my first proper redpoint until gone 5 as the sun was out and the air was warm most of the day.  This is also hard as when you turn up to the crag you just want to get stuck in with everyone else instead of sitting around.  Basically when the actual climbing is near your physical limit you have to give yourself the best chance of success be it rest, conditions, skin, clean holds and boots, sleep, and nutrition etc.   

[Falling Down]

  Does anyone have any other tips for working a crux quicker?

A trick of Malc's was to try and reverse the crux or get into the position of how the crux move finishes so your body learns the position.  Reversing the movement probably helps with recruitment too.

[jstrongman]

True JohnM I suppose that is one of the big differences between punters and pros. The Pros have got time to wait and are not fitting their sessions in with work, family, etc. I now get over excited about going to my local crags and just want to get as much out of one session as possible, as now climbing is not just a pastime, it is a luxury!! But climbing projects needs discipline, I was just hoping there were a few tactical shortcuts.

[Oldmanmatt]

If at first you don't succeed, try and try and try and then try some more. There was a problem put up by Christan at Climbat BCN, he graded it 7a. There was a pinch swing a full arm span out from an under cling on a horizontal roof. I worked it three times a week for 6 weeks, just couldn't hold it. Then one day I did and now I can do every time, it's part of my warm up routine!!! It's not just about strength, it's mostly in your head. Every time you try, you do something subtly different, until you hit the sweet spot and then the body just remembers. The great thing is, it remembers and applies the same trick in similar situations............

[Oldmanmatt]

Oh yeah.... Strangely, I find I always seem to get it, when I try to show someone else the problem; having told them how hard it is. Happened yesterday on a 7b+ at Savassona. Tried it several times last weekend, couldn't get off the ground. Tried to show a mate this evil thing and........... got it first time!   I assume I'd been churning it at the back of my mind all week and developed a new plan. A definite tick in the sleep on it box.......

[SA Chris]

Also avoid tunnel vision. Even if you are convinced you have found the "best" way of doing a move/problem, keep an open mid as to the possibility that there may be a better way of doing it, and allow yourself a degree of experimentation as it could improve your success rate. Sometimes even the most minor tweaks - dropping a shoulder or turning a hip, can tip the scales in your favour.

[dobbin]

This is known in the business as 'doing a Parry' 

I thought 'doing a Parry' was the process of reaching past the crux from the starting holds? Whilst speaking street jive.

[dave]

Why I oughtta...,

[jakes]

There's an article that Greg's written that's relevant to the OP http://info.rockrun.com/articles/climbing-at-your-limit-tactics.html.

[Bonjoy]

Push-ons (and ladders!) are very useful for working the upper bits of higher problems. I know they involve being touched by other people(!), but really they can save a LOT of time and effort.

[dobbin]

This is very true, sometimes being pushed through a move can enable you to have a feel of the holds so that you know what to expect when/if you eventually get there from the start, although the danger is that if you get pushed too much it pushes you out of the body position you needed to be in and can actually feel harder. I got pushed through my high point on something I was trying recently, and I thought it felt desperados. I wondered how I would ever do it if I ever got there, but when I finally nailed the move from the ground it felt piss. So, being pushed is useful, but theres actually a bit of skill from the pushee, about knowing where to push, and by how much.

Ladders, especially those retractable ones, are great.