[duncan]

Good discussion!

I thought that the 'volume' aspect of core training was because the core muscles are postural and have to contract isometrically for long periods, they are predominantly slow twitch, with the conventional wisdom being that slow twitch fibres respond better to higher reps.

This is a very common belief promoted by some influential people in this field but I don't think there is any real evidence to support it.  If it were true you would expect a higher proportion of slow-twitch fibres in the deeper abdominal muscles such as transversus abdominis than in more superficial muscles like rectus abdominis. 

There is only one study that I know of that reports fibre type in human abdominal muscles and it had only 13 subjects, too small for it to be taken very seriously.  It found 55–58% type 1 fibres in transversus abdominis, which is not very different to figures reported for other muscles in sedentary humans.  It also reports:

"There were large inter-individual variations in fibre composition, whereas, in general, the differences between the different muscles were minor or non-existent"

So different people can have different proportions of muscle fibre type in their core muscles just as they do in other muscles and there is no consistent pattern of core muscles having a higher proportion of slow-twitch fibres.

I wonder how much core training Jerry was doing did before he sent Dominator?

[Serpico]

I wonder how much core training Jerry was doing did before he sent Dominator?

How much core strength did he need to build? How much core training would I need to do to get Jerry's untrained level?

[Tommy]

Sicko.
You (and Tommy for that matter) would do well to remember this famous quote: "If the back of your hand touches the rock, it isn't climbing".
I can't remember which Frenchy said that, but it's words to live by.

Ha ha! Good quote! I might have to reuse that one.

Paul - too right, those one armers are also another exercise which seems to pay off mostly in bed  So what are we down for? Max L-hang from a bar whilst doing one armers? If only....

[Paul B]

I knew there had to be a reason why I can crank more out with the left arm (I'll leave now).

[Serpico]

There is only one study that I know of that reports fibre type in human abdominal muscles and it had only 13 subjects, too small for it to be taken very seriously.  It found 55–58% type 1 fibres in transversus abdominis, which is not very different to figures reported for other muscles in sedentary humans.  It also reports:

"There were large inter-individual variations in fibre composition, whereas, in general, the differences between the different muscles were minor or non-existent"

A bit of late night Googling:
Linky1
Linky2
Linky3

[duncan]

A bit of late night Googling:
Linky1
Linky2
Linky3

Thanks for these.  Link 2 study looked at back muscles in 32 people finding erector spinae had more type 1 muscles than some other muscles, so this supports the theory that postural muscles have more type 1 fibres.  Link 3 study looks at back muscles in 16 subjects, finding no difference in fibre-types between deep multifidus (ie core) and superficial back muscles.  The two studies are somewhat contradictory but Link 2 study is probably the better designed, so this is limited evidence that postural back muscles have more slow-twitch fibres.

Link 1 study looked at a range of muscles in 6 subjects.  It reports findings from rectus abdominis: 46% type 1 fibres - a relatively low proportion of slow-twitch fibres - but with so few subjects I wouldn't read much into this.  It didn't study any of the other abdominal muscles e.g transversus or internal obliques.  It also showed "... that there was a wide variation in fibre type proportions between the 6 samples in almost all the muscles studied".

I don't think any of this challenges my suggestion that there is nothing special about the abdominal muscles.   I don't think it there is any evidence that abdominal muscles should be trained any differently to other muscles.   

As a broader point, even if core muscles have a higher proportion of slow-twitch fibres, most people will have a good proportions of both and their fast-twitch fibres will respond to training.  If your goal is improve your core for short, powerful stuff, and you think you have a specific weakness in your core, why shouldn't any core training be short duration and powerful?  I just don't see why it should be different to any other kind of training.

[Serpico]

It's clear that postural muscles contain all 3 fibre types, but they have always been trained traditionally with higher volume work. The volume for other muscle groups  has also traditionally been prescribed with very narrow rep ranges for different effects (hypertrophy, max strength, endurance), but as was recently pointed out to me by someone far better informed there's little SCIENCE to back up this up.
ASEP/Carpinelli
And that people show a huge variance in response to strength training, and a wider selection of repetitions is still effective at recruiting fast twitch fibres.
I include some high intensity work for my core but it's only as part of my weight training (deadlifts/OH squats). My focus is routes, so a more endurance based program is more appropriate for my core training, but even for bouldering the core is contracting isometrically for up to a minute (and it's not fully relaxed when not climbing) so longer duration work may still be appropriate.
In the end there's a lot of SCIENCE missing on this, and a lot of contradictory SCIENCE, so I tend to go with a combination of what trainers/coaches have observed to work, and what I have found to work for me over the years.
Experience has shown that next year it'll all be wrong and I'll have to change my opinions again based on the new SCIENCE.

[Probes]

And another thing....
I think a high degree of core exercise and proprioception work is necessary for anyone who sits at a desk all day and still wants to climb hard - weak, non-firing glutes, tight psoas, weak abs, can soon lead to  kyphotic-lordotic posture, which can cause shoulder problems which can refer to the elbow... etc...
So, a lot of posterior chain work, stretching, and proprioceptive work as well.

Your absolutely bang on there serps, dealing with sitting at a desk has become part of my training ritual. Quad stretches, arse clenches, and army style chest out private at lunches, otherwise my posture starts to go really bad.

[slackline]

In the end there's a lot of SCIENCE missing on this, and a lot of contradictory SCIENCE, so I tend to go with a combination of what trainers/coaches have observed to work, and what I have found to work for me over the years.
Experience has shown that next year it'll all be wrong and I'll have to change my opinions again based on the new SCIENCE.

Truth in science can be defined as the working hypothesis best suited to open the way to the next better one.

[Falling Down]

And another thing....
I think a high degree of core exercise and proprioception work is necessary for anyone who sits at a desk all day and still wants to climb hard - weak, non-firing glutes, tight psoas, weak abs, can soon lead to  kyphotic-lordotic posture, which can cause shoulder problems which can refer to the elbow... etc...
So, a lot of posterior chain work, stretching, and proprioceptive work as well.

Eggsfuckingacksley....

[fried]

Can anyone actually recommend a set of exercises? The amount of information on the web is overwhelming.

At the start of the year I signed up for the whole year at my bouldering wall, the wall has a full gym, unfortunately the person responsible for the gym disappeared 3 years ago and he's never been replaced. So, basically you just go and try stuff out. I've build up a routine from watching and asking other people, but again a lot of the information is conflicting.

I'm doing low rep ( sets x3 of a lot of machines that I have no idea what they're called or what exactly they do. My abdos are very weak, so I try to do extra work on that, but maybe should be doing more reps for this.

I match the exact description above , desk jockey, bad posture, shoulder/ elbow problems.

In addition I've started doing a lot more stretching. But I seem to have had a stiff back for the last couple of weeks, probably from not doing exercises correctly.

[shark]

the wall has a full gym,

Does it have dumbells ?

[duncan]

Can anyone actually recommend a set of exercises? The amount of information on the web is overwhelming.

Assuming this is for steep bouldering and/or routes not offwidth perversity...

Leg-raises hanging from a bar
L-Hangs

Vary exercises by changing leg positions -e.g. one leg flexed, the other extended, abduct leg (move it out to the side) - nearly all climbing involves asymmetrical movement and it would seem to be sensible to train like this. 

Front-levers with feet on
Inverted rows


Progress by reducing support from the legs - e.g. one toe on rather than both heels in the case of the inverted rows.  This also makes the loading asymmetric.

I'd exercise on a bar rather than rings - unless you climb very loose rock.

All these are fairly specific to climbing, whereas planks and so forth are not.  I think there is a place for non-specific exercises if you have a very, very weak core (not applicable to 99% climbers) and need to start at a very low level or have an existing injury which needs to be handled carefully.  Otherwise I would suggest trying to replicate the kind of climbing you are weak at as closely as possible.

Don't bother with dumbells ( Simon)

[shark]

Don't bother with dumbells ( Simon)

As Lockyer is my witness my performance last night in keeping my feet on and pressing hard at move 12 onwards on my link-up on the 40 degree board on the Foundry was awesome much improved statistically significant.

I hadn't been on this link-up for over a fortnight and the only core work I have done in the interim is to occasionally  try the squat exercises (with and without dumbells) I have learnt from these recent threads. So occassionally that I've not even bothered to record them. hwoever, last night I could feel the difference in being able to press that much harder through to my feet.

[Paul B]

nothing to do with your legs then?

[shark]

nothing to do with your legs then?

Was I  ?

[Paul B]

that wasn't my point, is it your core thats imrpoved or your sparrow legs? Although it doesn't matter if it works I suppose.

[shark]

that wasn't my point, is it your core thats imrpoved or your sparrow legs? Although it doesn't matter if it works I suppose.

Sparrow legs? You jest.

But I think your point is well made and right in that it is probably the glutes/legs that have been strengthened or perhaps been taught to work properly.

This is all desirable stuff in shifting the load away from my lower back which took an unfair share before and was in the regular habit of getting severely strained. Touch wood, that hasnt happened of late despite training hard and for me is a big YYFY.   

 

[Rocksteady]

that wasn't my point, is it your core thats imrpoved or your sparrow legs? Although it doesn't matter if it works I suppose.

This is all desirable stuff in shifting the load away from my lower back which took an unfair share before and was in the regular habit of getting severely strained. Touch wood, that hasnt happened of late despite training hard and for me is a big YYFY.

Shark, what was/is your program for sorting out recurring lower back strains?

I think I fall into the category of people with dodgy core (despite being a climber) as a legacy of bad posture and bad form lifting heavy(ish) weights in my younger years exacerbated by a desk-bound job (stiff upper back, psoas etc). I'm constantly coming away from a session at the wall or a day at the crag with a sore lower back or sides (obliques). Any tips?

[iain]

And another thing....
I think a high degree of core exercise and proprioception work is necessary for anyone who sits at a desk all day and still wants to climb hard - weak, non-firing glutes, tight psoas, weak abs, can soon lead to  kyphotic-lordotic posture, which can cause shoulder problems which can refer to the elbow... etc...
So, a lot of posterior chain work, stretching, and proprioceptive work as well.

Your absolutely bang on there serps, dealing with sitting at a desk has become part of my training ritual. Quad stretches, arse clenches, and army style chest out private at lunches, otherwise my posture starts to go really bad.

I've definitely got this. Can either of you give me some pointers on how to go about correcting it? Happy to pointed to some resources to educate myself about it.

[biscuit]

Lots of volume and variety is what i've been told.

Why volume? I'm always amazed that the mystical 'core' is treated differently to any other muscle group when training strength. For example if you do 1000's of situps (or variants thereof) wouldn't you be better off doing something more taxing... Stevie Haston doesn't agreee.

I found rings let me reap core rewards as they're so damn unstable!

I am not too sure of the science i just blindly followed what Tom Randall had written in an article. He knows about core stuff.

Not recommending doing 1000's of reps - although Tom does but he likes hanging upside down by his feet in dirty offwidths - i do 250-300 movements covering all areas so each area ( upper, lower, back, obliques etc ) get 40reps each and then some isometric stuff.

[biscuit]

Also meant to add my mate got a set of rings from Ikea. Supposed to be for kids bedroom and cost him less than a tenner. Not as good as a proper set obviously but strong enough for mere mortals to do the basics on.

[shark]

Shark, what was/is your program for sorting out recurring lower back strains?

I think I fall into the category of people with dodgy core (despite being a climber) as a legacy of bad posture and bad form lifting heavy(ish) weights in my younger years exacerbated by a desk-bound job (stiff upper back, psoas etc). I'm constantly coming away from a session at the wall or a day at the crag with a sore lower back or sides (obliques). Any tips?

More of an evolution rather than a program. I used to go to the Physio every time I strained it, mainly John Ostrovoski. He got sick of seeing me and recommended I try yoga just over a year ago which was good advice and I did for a while and although I stopped going I stuck with doing the spinal twist floor exercises which John also recommended. I also got into deadlifting and other free weights stuff which helped strengthen my back.

By now I thought I had sorted my back but it went a few times in the Summer and then again more severely last autumn when I struggled to get out of bed and had to get my wife to tie my shoelaces. I then had a few session at the Hallamshire Physio Centre as it was closer with a physio called Rivca Swinson. Turned out some of the postural stuff I had done had backfired such as sticking my back in military style to stand or sit up straighter and instead try and relax it. She gave some exercises to try and mobilise my stiff upper back and got me to start using my glutes to stand up and sit down to take the stress off my back. My back hasn't gone since then. The squatting exercises on these recent threads have helped a bit more again.

I have always had a funny back and been able to push my own spine back into place audibly. My perception is that I have slight sclerois an upper back with upper back muscles prone to tighteness/spasm and an upper spine that is far less flexible than the lower back. I doubt your prioblems are going to be the same.  You might try and experiment with some of the above but it would be better to seek physio advice to get an insight into what your issues are exactly as they are likely not to be the same as mine. Also when you correct something it can sometimes lead to a referred problem elsewhere.

[fried]

the wall has a full gym,

Does it have dumbells ?

wot dat?

[hairich]

i am not sure about core training.i can do a front lever on the rings in the works and hold it for 10 seconds and i cant climb for shit