[chillax]

As I've slightly gimped my ring fingers and don't want to properly fuck them, I'm taking a break from all activities that load the fingers (i.e. actual climbing and fingerboarding). I thought this would be a good chance to do some proper core training, as its an area of weakness and doesn't load the fingers. Can the good people of UKB sort me out with core training advice, and what you've found to be effective?

Heres what I've been doing so far:

10 x 10 second leg raises off a pullup bar

1 minute back dish
1 minute each for both side dishes
1 minute front dish
1 minute front plank
1 minute each for both side planks
- these are all done consecutively, so it take 7 minutes for a full set which I repeat 3 times

Pathetic attempts at front levers.

Any knowledge or advice on how I can improve on this is most welcome 

[biscuit]

Lots of volume and variety is what i've been told.

Do lots of "easy" exercises such as different types of crunches/back raises making sure you work all the core muscles. Maybe a couple of hundred reps in total. Leg raises off a bar are good.

Then do a couple of sets of isometric work ( your planks etc. ) and then if you're up to it some resistance work i.e. weighted crunches.

Once you can hold an isometric position for a decent length of time ( 1 minute ) it's time to make it harder i.e. 1 arm + 1 foot plank.

Loads of ideas on the net for different exercises but 80% easy volume work and 20% hard stuff - iso + weighted - and build up to 5 times a week.

Hope the finger gets better.

[tomtom]

I do legraises on a pullup bar while twisting.. seems to work the sides more

*I know nothing about training etc..

[JimCon]

Lots of volume and variety is what i've been told.

 

Personally, I think that it's worth adding a little specificity into the mix; as climbing requires control throughout a wide range of positions, it follows that the most effective core exercises for climbers will reflect this.

So static/isometric exercises in which you are required to control your limbs in space in a variety of positions and ranges of motion - such as the 1-arm/1-foot planks that biscuit mentions would fit the bill. Even better if the arm/leg is held out to the side...

You could also google a few swiss ball/medicine ball/kettle bell exercises as many will work the core muscles in multiple planes of motion and with various degrees of rotation. I'm thinking here about some of the swinging, twisting, "chopping", etc. exercises, with resistance added. I found some of the videos on the Gym Jones site useful in this respect (although I think the layout has changed and now most of the content is subscription only? sorry, not very useful!).

Hope you recover from the injury soon

[Paul B]

Lots of volume and variety is what i've been told.

Why volume? I'm always amazed that the mystical 'core' is treated differently to any other muscle group when training strength. For example if you do 1000's of situps (or variants thereof) wouldn't you be better off doing something more taxing... Stevie Haston doesn't agreee.

I found rings let me reap core rewards as they're so damn unstable!

[JimCon]

Lots of volume and variety is what i've been told.

Why volume? I'm always amazed that the mystical 'core' is treated differently to any other muscle group when training strength. For example if you do 1000's of situps (or variants thereof) wouldn't you be better off doing something more taxing... Stevie Haston doesn't agreee.

I found rings let me reap core rewards as they're so damn unstable!

Good point. I wouldn't bother doing any situps, let alone 1000's of the damn things! I suppose that I'd argue for a reasonable volume of core work, achieved through a good variety of different exercises.

Rings would be another good example of the kind of "static/isometric exercises in which you are required to control your limbs in space in a variety of positions and ranges of motion" that I was referring to...

[shark]

10 x 10 second leg raises off a pullup bar

1 minute back dish
1 minute each for both side dishes
1 minute front dish
1 minute front plank
1 minute each for both side planks
- these are all done consecutively, so it take 7 minutes for a full set which I repeat 3 times

Pathetic attempts at front levers.

Any knowledge or advice on how I can improve on this is most welcome 

I actually don't know what most of those exercises are so can't pass comment.

My core strength has benefited from doing some deadlifting and clean and jerk. If you can't get access to barbells then squats and other dumbell exercises on the other thread are going to be nearly as good.

[Fultonius]

My core strength has benefited from doing some deadlifting and clean and jerk. If you can't get access to barbells then squats and other dumbell exercises on the other thread are going to be nearly as good.

I'd agree - a lot of people focus on the abdominal muscles when working "core" but to be honest, most climbers have got pretty strong abbs. Almost everyone ignores the hamstrings, glutes and lower back which are the main muscles that do the work on anything steep. Heavy deadlifts (low reps, <6) and gym-ball work are great for these)

Front levers/leg raises are great to get your feet back on if they swing off, but it's the chain of muscles down the back/glute/hamstrings that generate the force through a foothold on steep ground.

I can vouch for the necessity of strong hamstrings, because I got 25% of my right hamsting removed in surgery and it makes a huge difference!

As to the clean and jerk, I go for the hanging-snatch - great all body work out and helped fix my subluxing shoulder! (It seems to work some of the antagonist and synergist muscles that don't get worked much during climbing)

Oh, and as far as working the abbs quite hard - I recommend dumbell pullovers on a gym-ball. Also, 1-arm wide chest presses on a gym-ball are good too.

[duncan]

Lots of volume and variety is what i've been told.

Why volume? I'm always amazed that the mystical 'core' is treated differently to any other muscle group when training strength.

I agree.  I think this idea comes from people like bioengineer Stuart McGill who suggest deeper trunk muscles are working during most activities and only low levels of contraction are needed to 'stabilise' the lumbar spine.  He therefore suggests 'core' muscles are trained with high repetition, low effort exercises.  However he is mostly interested in back injury and 'stabilising' individual joints of the spine and I don't think this applies to training for sport.  I don't see that trunk muscles are any different to any other kind of muscles and the same training principles should apply. 

In the 80s some climbers trained doing hundreds of wrist-curls.  This resulted in a satisfying pumped feeling but didn't help their climbing much.  The right muscles were being exercised the wrong way.  Nowadays people use fingerboards which are more beneficial.

We have shown this also applies to core exercises.  Pilates trains the 'core' muscles to work more when you do Pilates exercises but doesn't change how they work at other times.  You get better at what you practice.  An exercise that is not much like a climbing movement is not going to have much effect on your climbing.

My guess is that leg-raises off a pull-up bar are likely to help but front planks are unlikely to help.  I would tailor the core exercise to the kind of climbing you want to do: if you are an upside-down offwidth pervert then you need high volume: gravity boots and hundreds of curl-ups.  If you want to do stuff like The Furry Egg, then do high intensity, low volume work.

[Micky Connor]

Ooh! I am loving the science!

What about front planks, press ups, and so on as some kind of balancing exercises for the front levers, and L-hangs?

[Tommy]

Lots of volume and variety is what i've been told.

Why volume? I'm always amazed that the mystical 'core' is treated differently to any other muscle group when training strength. For example if you do 1000's of situps (or variants thereof) wouldn't you be better off doing something more taxing... Stevie Haston doesn't agreee.

I found rings let me reap core rewards as they're so damn unstable!

Lots of volume and variety (mixture of high vol, low intensity + low vol, high intensity) is the way to go in my opinion. I've taken this from many sessions working with olympic divers and gymnasts as well and I don't see them complaining about core! In fact I'd suggest they are the Kings of Core.

I've used this approach for the last 2 years and I doubt many people who do low reps and high intensity without the additional high vol work could beast me on a session. In fact - Paul, we'll have a showdown....  Shark can referee....

All this is useless of course, unless you work out a way to turn your hard worked strength and conditioning into something that applies on the wall. I.e. cycle how much you do exercises that have a high specificity to climbing.

[shark]

How much core strength do you need though for normal climbing though ?  In a list of priorities of limiting factors its always going to rate pretty low. The occasional dose of weights, yoga or core exercises is going to be enough for most.

Having said all that, far be it for me to discourage a contest between Paul B and Tommy. I suggest the Endcliffe Park playground at dawn. You may each nominate two feats of core strength. In the event of a tie I will choose the decider.   

[tomtom]

I suggest they have to tow Lagers' passion wagon van using some strange leg raise shuffle motion..

[TobyD]

I am tempted to go with the mantra that specificity is of prime importance in any training regime .... but i suspect it depends on your base level, and how much your 'core' strength is say transversus abdominus, rectus abdominus, or actually back extensors, hip flexors etc etc.
Climbing is such a complex, varied activity, i reckon most moves probably include an element of all of these and many more, and that general core conditioning as championed by a certain offwidth pervert is a sound strategy; supplemented with some more specific work. I have got some good results from a contolling cutting loose exercise on a fingerboard with a chair placed the other side of the doorway. obviously if you have a cellarboard etc, you could replicate on this.

[account_inactive]

I'm voting for variety and with higher rep exercise.  I'm sure I'd read some research stating that the abdominal area responded better to oxidative exercises (apart from the top of the muscle), though I could be smoking crack (plus I've had some wine)

[kev woodhead]

Hi, you could try hanging from a bar, dish forward, rotate through to left side dish, continue rotation to arch then round to right dish and back to the front. Then back anti clockwise. ensure you dont pike though. This is more akin to climbing and as you improve you will dish more. To add a little extra you could try with ankle weights on but as you tire will be more likely to pike.

[Tommy]

I'm voting for variety and with higher rep exercise.  I'm sure I'd read some research stating that the abdominal area responded better to oxidative exercises (apart from the top of the muscle), though I could be smoking crack (plus I've had some wine)

I don't know about you Dylan, but I've definitely been smoking in a crack.

Ditto what Toby said - in the end, it mostly comes down to specificity (how the fuck do you actually say that word, let alone spell it??!). Do your strength and conditioning all you like, but unless you convert it into something useful, it'll pretty much only land you more skills in bed or in my cellar. 

[Serpico]

I thought that the 'volume' aspect of core training was because the core muscles are postural and have to contract isometrically for long periods, they are predominantly slow twitch, with the conventional wisdom being that slow twitch fibres respond better to higher reps. It all depends on how much you define as being volume, for me I don't go past 30 reps, or 1min iso holds.
I'm not a fan of Pilates but I do include the Pilates Roll-up with abdominal hollowing in my core routine. The study previously posted seems reasonable as I didn't see any immediate transfer to my climbing, it did however teach my how to contract my TA and it also trained it. The first time I consciously made a point of hollowing while trying a problem (the long move on Ring Piece at Ilkley) it was a revelation - it was the difference between not being close to doing the move and doing it. I've since found it make a big difference on a lot of other steep problems. That's not to say that any of the other methods of abdominal bracing/blocking that people favour wouldn't have worked as well, it's just that that worked instantly and dramatically for me, I however have a high degree of anterior pelvic tilt, so I suspect that I probably don't have very good activation patterns anyway, ab hollowing seems to make it easier for me to maintain a neutral spine.
As for specificity; I focus on exercises that put body in an extended position, like dishes (if my definition is correct: back flat to the floor, legs straight, heels just off the ground). I've found that these improve my footwork on smears, and help me keep my feet on in positions where I'm extended.  These made a big difference on The Maximum at Malham which had been my nemesis years - it was like being 3" taller on it, similarly DWR at t'cliff, I'd always done it the shorty's way, a combination of dishes and ab hollowing and I can do it the lank way. I've been back when my fingers have been strong but I've not done any core and not been able to do it.

[Serpico]

And another thing....
I think a high degree of core exercise and proprioception work is necessary for anyone who sits at a desk all day and still wants to climb hard - weak, non-firing glutes, tight psoas, weak abs, can soon lead to  kyphotic-lordotic posture, which can cause shoulder problems which can refer to the elbow... etc...
So, a lot of posterior chain work, stretching, and proprioceptive work as well.

[Hoseyb]

Ditto what Toby said - in the end, it mostly comes down to specificity

I've always trained specifically for actual targets if I've trained at all, Lately I've been trying to regain some squirming fitness (stuff on the blog if piqued) and that's been high intensity no time (I'm a stressed dad). I've no idea if its working but I've hit some arbitrary goals and gone up a cup size so something's happening.

Hi Tommy BTW, nice O/W article (no Brutaliser?) look forward to catching up at the Coaching Symposium.

hosey

[chillax]

Cheers for the info all. Sounds like a mixture of volumes and intensities is the way to go, while trying to focus on climbing specific excercises. Must experiment to find a good combination. Got lots of time for experimentation as theres sod all else i can do! Half tempted to build some sort of overhead offwidth type contraption to do inverted crunches from, but I'm worried that could be a gateway drug to a whole other world of upside-down perversion.... 

[Hoseyb]

Half tempted to build some sort of overhead offwidth type contraption to do inverted crunches from, but I'm worried that could be a gateway drug to a whole other world of upside-down perversion.... 

http://hoseyb.blogspot.com/2009/09/climbing-on-anvil.html

[Serpico]

Half tempted to build some sort of overhead offwidth type contraption to do inverted crunches from, but I'm worried that could be a gateway drug to a whole other world of upside-down perversion.... 

http://hoseyb.blogspot.com/2009/09/climbing-on-anvil.html

Sicko.
You (and Tommy for that matter) would do well to remember this famous quote: "If the back of your hand touches the rock, it isn't climbing".
I can't remember which Frenchy said that, but it's words to live by.

[chillax]

Half tempted to build some sort of overhead offwidth type contraption to do inverted crunches from, but I'm worried that could be a gateway drug to a whole other world of upside-down perversion.... 

http://hoseyb.blogspot.com/2009/09/climbing-on-anvil.html

Good ingenuity! Might bash together something along the same lines myself. Granted most of the offwidths I'm interested in are more on the vertical side, but that does look like fun. Cheers

[Paul B]

I've used this approach for the last 2 years and I doubt many people who do low reps and high intensity without the additional high vol work could beast me on a session. In fact - Paul, we'll have a showdown....  Shark can referee....

We can do a one armer showdown as well and prove how little that crosses over while we're at it?

I was the subject of a large group of Sheffield climbers' amusement once after a training session where I could barely hold an L-sit in a support but could happily ping my way up steep board problems stopping some pretty big swings, in fact even now I'm fairly certain I'd be weak as f*ck in a showdown of core skills but I don't struggle for 'core' tension. I can't atest to my performance in the horizontal world either before or after 'ring training'