[ksjs]

i might have missed this but ive never seen any discussion / knowledge on here or UKC about bouldering flash vs worked grade. in sport its usually said that you can redpoint about 5 grades harder than your onsight i.e. you can onsight Fr 7a so you can redpoint Fr 7c+. is there also a generally recognised link between your flash and worked grades in bouldering?

[JohnM]

Is your redpoint grade really meant to be five grades harder than your onsight grade?  If that is the case then I am really under achieving in the redpoint game!

[Serpico]

If there's 5 grades between your onsight and RP grade then you're a piss-poor onsighter. 3 is more like it for a well rounded climber, but I know people who've got it down to less.

[psychomansam]

I imagine it's harder to define as problems are a bit more extreme in their differences.

Some are technically very easy and obvious and you can either do them first go, or if you're not strong enough, you can't (think 'one hard pull'). With these problems, there'd be quite a small gap between flash and worked.

Some problems are fecking basterds, and all but unflashable even though they're physically undemanding once mastered (think 'everything in font') so the gap could be vast.

etc etc...

[Falling Down]

A 2 grade gap in routes for me and one meagre + grade difference in bouldering.

[ksjs]

Is your redpoint grade really meant to be five grades harder than your onsight grade?  If that is the case then I am really under achieving in the redpoint game!

certainly 4 John. you might have to adjust a bit if your best onsight is some continental softness

[ksjs]

If there's 5 grades between your onsight and RP grade then you're a piss-poor onsighter. 3 is more like it for a well rounded climber, but I know people who've got it down to less.

or good at redpointing? i cant quote any sources but im pretty sure ive seen a number of 4-5 mentioned in several places. it certainly holds true for me and i dont think im the worst at onsighting ever. i dont see how it would be difficult to have a significantly better RP grade: draws already in place and at the right height, using all available rests, correct beta, no wasted energy, improved physical readiness for the route as you try it more and so on.

[Serpico]

or good at redpointing?

No, because the RP is when you execute every move as near perfectly as you can, the more your onsight differs from that grade - the poorer the quality of movement you have.

[JohnM]

Yeah I guess the five grade rule works for me if I take my average onsight grade as opposed to the occasional flash in the pan harder onsight.  It depends on the type of routes as well and eventually you might be limited by the difficulty of the cruxes.  In this country you could be able to only boulder 7A but be extremely fit and be able to onsight 7c+/8a but would get shut down on the cruxes of 8c/8c+ routes on the redpoint so that 5 grade rule wouldn't work. 

[ksjs]

Yeah I guess the five grade rule works for me if I take my average onsight grade as opposed to the occasional flash in the pan harder onsight.  It depends on the type of routes as well and eventually you might be limited by the difficulty of the cruxes.  In this country you could be able to only boulder 7A but be extremely fit and be able to onsight 7c+/8a but would get shut down on the cruxes of 8c/8c+ routes on the redpoint so that 5 grade rule wouldn't work.

i know Andy's thread on weak for the grade mentioned a few anomalies but is there really anyone who boulders 7A and onsights 7c+? incredible sounding to me.

[jwi]

The best sport climbers in the world have a 4.5 grade gap between o/s and rp. I.e. they redpoint 9b and o/s 8c/c+.  Some of the comp climbers have smaller gap, but I suspect that is partly down to not having time to siege routes.

We who do not climb for a living can have any kind of grade gap, depending on time and opportunity.  I know some who have no grade gap and some who have 6 grades gap.

Most climbers can flash about 0.5 grade harder than the o/s level.

[jwi]

sorry didn't really read the o.p.

In bouldering, the best boulder around 8C+ and flashes 8B. So 4 grades then.

[The Aaronator]

I have a two grade gap on routes. But my best OS's were made in France at a time when I only RP'd routes I hadn't onsighted and I didn't try anything harder while out there. All my hard RP's have been made in England where the routes are fairly technical by comparison - interestingly, the difference goes up to four for routes only climbed in this country.

My bouldeing grade gap is similar as long as one does not count the traverses at Woodwell...

[rodma]

sorry didn't really read the o.p.

In bouldering, the best boulder around 8C+ and flashes 8B. So 4 grades then.

That's similar to my gap, only with significantly lower numbers (7b+ and 8a).

I'm pretty sure that's 3 grades, not 4, unless you know of some secret grade that falls in the sequence 8B, 8B+, 8C, 8C+, or maybe you have an abstract counting method (where 1=0) 

[jwi]

terribly embarrassing. Note to self: if it's after midnight, go to bed, don't write stupid shit.

[Rocksteady]

I'd have thought the difference between your flash and worked grade depends a lot on your strength relative to your technical ability.

If your technique and route reading are really good, there will be less difference between your flash grade and your worked grade - you're likely to get it right first time.

If you are strong but not great technically, you won't read the route right so won't flash it, but once you've worked the moves out you'll be strong enough to do them.

The top level guys obviously have great technique, but still have a few grades gap as they spend a long time on the seige so make specific strength improvements for the moves on that route/problem.

[slackline]

But if you're strong (in terms of endurance), but not great technically you can hang around for longer and work it out, giving you more chance of getting the on-sight/flash. 

[Tim Broughtonshaw]

7b+ and 8b for me ( 5 grades).  and only just got my first 7b+ flash last year prior to that it was 7b and 8b.  The 8b was some sieging however.

Tim

remember Gresh's logic for his courses was you should be able to redpoint 3 grades above your maximum onsight in a day.  And he managed to get his clients to achieve this. Although as previously explained with bouldering grades this maxim is probably les likely to be true as you get higher in the grades as a days worth of efficiency savings on a redpoint wont get around a boulder problem you are not strong enough to do.

[IanP]

3 to 4 for me (4 if you count one slightly contentious 8a)  - I have managed to onsight 7b in the UK  (once + a few flashes) but the majority have been abroad.   I would have though 3 to 4 is fairly average, 5 makes you a poor onsighter (or just somebody who spends a most of their time redpointing), better than 3 makes you a good onsighter (or poor redpointer!).

[Andy F]

I'd have said a 4 grade difference for a good all-rounder. Works for most people from the uberwads downwards eg Ondra 8c onsight vs 9b redpoint.

[Cassidy]

Routes wise if we count "continental softness" only my gap is 2.  I would argue that the term "continental breadth of choice" might actually be more appropriate but thats another argument. 

On the other hand if we only count UK sends my gap is 5.  Now I'm a heavy guy, no flexibility in the hips and don't get on well with vertical white limestone.  I do get on well with tufas, pinchs and long burly enduro fests, so no real surprise my onsight grade is bumped up a lot more in that style if you ask me. 

Onsightability is a bigger factor than "softness" once you know where the holds are on your average Malham route they feel no harder and often easier if you ask me than a lot of foreign routes. 

As for bouldering, can you actually onsight a boulder?
 

[andymarshll]

It's a five grade difference for me, but will the level at which you operate not make a difference? If the hardest someone'd worked was V6, i'd be very surprised if their best flash was just V1.

[Serpico]

Patxi's got a couple (more?) 8c+ onsights to his name, what's his hardest RP? 9a+? 2 grades difference.
I still reckon 3 grades for an all rounder.

[Fiend]

If there's 5 grades between your onsight and RP grade then you're a piss-poor onsighter. 3 is more like it for a well rounded climber, but I know people who've got it down to less.

5 for me, as the OP suggests. I spend the vast majority of my time onsighting: many hundred sport flashes vs. 2 proper redpoints. 


Edit: is this about bouldering / sport climbing?? The op says bouldering, but everyone is talking about sport climbing. If, perhaps, there was an unambiguous bouldering grading system that didn't look remotely similar to sport route grading and so couldn't be confused with it, this might be a lot simpler.... 


For bouldering, errr, 3 grades I think. Very close to being just one grade, luck plays a big role.

[JohnM]

It depends whether you take your max onsight grade or your average onsight grade i.e. the grade you would onsight 9 times out of 10.  With regards to Paxti, 8c+ is probably his max onsight grade as opposed to the grade he onsights nearly everytime so in that case the gap would be bigger.

[andybfreeman]

For routes i am around the 4/5bang on a 5 grade gap - 6c on sight and 6c+ flash vs 7b+ RP.

I am shit at routes (reading, tactics etc) though 

Sadly, as of yesterday my bouldering gap has increased to 4 grade - 6C+ vs 7B+. I think i struggle to give everything and concentrate on the moves on the flash. When I've worked the moves i can stop thinking about that and just try as hard as possible. Of course that's on font grades. things make less sense in V grades as it only looks like 3.5 grades (V5 - V8+) - yet another reason why V grades are shit 

[lukeyboy]

My boulder worked/flash difference is zero (7a/7a)... I'm probably better than I am strong, good at reading routes, and I'm not very good at spending a long time working something. The thing is, the first I've done at that grade I've spent a lot of time and effort working (and some since), and then more recently flashed one/ done a few 2nd or 3rd go, but haven't made the transition up to worked 7b. Getting better at working a problem for a while (and the same for sport) is a big goal for this year...

[ksjs]

Edit: is this about bouldering?

yes but it seems to have gone interestingly off topic. it appears that the strength thing in bouldering (and no doubt the fact that there simply arent as many variables or moves that can be worked [save for maybe something really long which probably merits a route grade anyway] ) decreases any consistent / useful link between flashed and worked bouldering grades. having said that there does seem to be a few people mentioning a gap of 3-4 grades.

FWIW the gaps for me are:

- bouldering 4
- routes 4 without continental softness or 3 with (no accident everybodys best onsight is abroad...)

[Andy F]

Routes - 4 grade difference, bouldering - about the same. But we all know why...

[petejh]

Routes - 4 grades. Bouldering  - 5 grades (V)/ 6 font.

[jwi]

Patxi's got a couple (more?) 8c+ onsights to his name, what's his hardest RP? 9a+? 2 grades difference.
I still reckon 3 grades for an all rounder.

I recon 3.5 grades. Patxi is not an all rounder of course, he is an on-sight specialist.

[markwellin]

I definately think it depends on what routes you generally try. Down here most hard routes are very cruxy. It was mentioned earlier that some hard 8 routes had a crux of v5-v7. I just did a 7c with a v7 crux.

Anyway my numbers are routes - 3 difference
Boulders -3
I've always heard it mentioned as 3 as the norm... And I'm gunna stick to it religiously

[Eddies]

I shockingly bad at sport so the difference is 5 grades. Finding my way up the chossy limestone crags i frequent and a partner wiling to belay me on my projects has been my major struggle so far 
Bouldering, its more like 4grades difference 7a~7c

[Doylo]

3 for me but i haven't regularly onsighted for years.  Personally i don't think onsighting means much in bouldering, its a flash or a redpoint. 

[chummer]

My gap is 2 grades at best, 3 normally. 5 grade difference sounds a bit much to me and I do as much onsighting as redpointing sport wise and don't feel any weaker in either style really.   

[chummer]

shit, just realised it's bouldering but the same applies as above.

[AJM]

I'm on 4 for routes, but its probably further towards 5 than towards 3. I'm not very good at onsighting, mainly because near me I find it easier to get inspired by harder redpoints than mid-grade onsights.

[Sidehaas]

Difference of 2 for sport grades (6c / 7a) and 3 for bouldering (6b+ / 7a).

[Teaboy]

I just did a 7c with a v7 crux.

What route was that, just so I know to avoid, and is that typical of the area?

For me there is only a grade or two difference between my flash and worked grade for boulder problems, this partly becuase I don't spend as long working problems as I do routes but also there are obviously fewer alternatives so the chance of hitting it right first time are much higher on a boulder than a route.

[markwellin]

A the new cuttings on Portland, called plyometrically speaking. It's quite typical there yes because they are boulder problems with ropes. Maybe 7m tops. The start is the crux so you can (and it has been done alot) solo them, but I bet the mats look pretty insignificant up there. Although the top is only about v1.

[rodma]

Just realised something fundamental.

The grade difference I referred to was only on rock. Indoors there is no grade difference. I'd have thought most people would have a similar flashed to worked grade indoors, if not, a greatly reduced difference.

[andy_e]

I've never flashed 7a and I've done a few 7b+/cs. Go figure?

[Richie Crouch]

I've never flashed 7a and I've done a few 7b+/cs. Go figure?

You like to be seen to do things in fine style so are willing to let go, rather than overpower through with bad beta for a scrappy flash!?

[galpinos]

7a and 7b for routes, 7A and 7B for bouldering so two grades for both. The flashes were one-offs though, not a regular occurance.

[nik at work]

Bouldering 7C+ and 8A+ (although the 7C+ was something of a one off, as was the 8A+ thinking about it. Maybe 7B+ and 8A would be a more accurate representation). So 2 or 3 grades difference.
Sport 7a+ and 7c+ so 4 grades difference, but I have only really tried red-pointing and the 7a+ flash was only because my previous best was beyond woeful.
Interestingly (or not perhaps) my trad on-sight/headpoint difference is 0.

[andy_e]

Interestingly (or not perhaps) my trad on-sight/headpoint difference is 0.

And what grade is that, could you remind us, oh Beardy one? 

[Yoof]

Sportwise- I onsighted 1 grade harder than I've redpointed (F7b+ as opposed to F7b)... Though I've not done much sport so it doesn't really mean anything.

Bouldering- Flashed 1 easier than I've worked.

I suppose it comes down to how sequency/ powerful they are, If you find a problem/route with a nice mix of the two and you've planned your sequence  you can easily onsight at your limit.

[Fultonius]

On routes: Best O/S was F7a+ and best redpoint F7c/+ 3/4 difference.

Boulders: Oh...just realised I've never really onsighted anything of worth...hmm - maybe 6C O/S and 7B+ worked so 5 or so. Piss poor boulder O/S record.

[AJM]

I'm on 4 for routes, but its probably further towards 5 than towards 3. I'm not very good at onsighting, mainly because near me I find it easier to get inspired by harder redpoints than mid-grade onsights.

Turns out I was wrong 

I'm going to have my work cut out now if I ever want to get to the heady realms of a +5 redpoint difference, especially given my new level of psyche for onsighting