[ksjs]

i might have missed this but ive never seen any discussion / knowledge on here or UKC about bouldering flash vs worked grade. in sport its usually said that you can redpoint about 5 grades harder than your onsight i.e. you can onsight Fr 7a so you can redpoint Fr 7c+. is there also a generally recognised link between your flash and worked grades in bouldering?

[JohnM]

Is your redpoint grade really meant to be five grades harder than your onsight grade?  If that is the case then I am really under achieving in the redpoint game!

[Serpico]

If there's 5 grades between your onsight and RP grade then you're a piss-poor onsighter. 3 is more like it for a well rounded climber, but I know people who've got it down to less.

[psychomansam]

I imagine it's harder to define as problems are a bit more extreme in their differences.

Some are technically very easy and obvious and you can either do them first go, or if you're not strong enough, you can't (think 'one hard pull'). With these problems, there'd be quite a small gap between flash and worked.

Some problems are fecking basterds, and all but unflashable even though they're physically undemanding once mastered (think 'everything in font') so the gap could be vast.

etc etc...

[Falling Down]

A 2 grade gap in routes for me and one meagre + grade difference in bouldering.

[ksjs]

Is your redpoint grade really meant to be five grades harder than your onsight grade?  If that is the case then I am really under achieving in the redpoint game!

certainly 4 John. you might have to adjust a bit if your best onsight is some continental softness

[ksjs]

If there's 5 grades between your onsight and RP grade then you're a piss-poor onsighter. 3 is more like it for a well rounded climber, but I know people who've got it down to less.

or good at redpointing? i cant quote any sources but im pretty sure ive seen a number of 4-5 mentioned in several places. it certainly holds true for me and i dont think im the worst at onsighting ever. i dont see how it would be difficult to have a significantly better RP grade: draws already in place and at the right height, using all available rests, correct beta, no wasted energy, improved physical readiness for the route as you try it more and so on.

[Serpico]

or good at redpointing?

No, because the RP is when you execute every move as near perfectly as you can, the more your onsight differs from that grade - the poorer the quality of movement you have.

[JohnM]

Yeah I guess the five grade rule works for me if I take my average onsight grade as opposed to the occasional flash in the pan harder onsight.  It depends on the type of routes as well and eventually you might be limited by the difficulty of the cruxes.  In this country you could be able to only boulder 7A but be extremely fit and be able to onsight 7c+/8a but would get shut down on the cruxes of 8c/8c+ routes on the redpoint so that 5 grade rule wouldn't work. 

[ksjs]

Yeah I guess the five grade rule works for me if I take my average onsight grade as opposed to the occasional flash in the pan harder onsight.  It depends on the type of routes as well and eventually you might be limited by the difficulty of the cruxes.  In this country you could be able to only boulder 7A but be extremely fit and be able to onsight 7c+/8a but would get shut down on the cruxes of 8c/8c+ routes on the redpoint so that 5 grade rule wouldn't work.

i know Andy's thread on weak for the grade mentioned a few anomalies but is there really anyone who boulders 7A and onsights 7c+? incredible sounding to me.

[jwi]

The best sport climbers in the world have a 4.5 grade gap between o/s and rp. I.e. they redpoint 9b and o/s 8c/c+.  Some of the comp climbers have smaller gap, but I suspect that is partly down to not having time to siege routes.

We who do not climb for a living can have any kind of grade gap, depending on time and opportunity.  I know some who have no grade gap and some who have 6 grades gap.

Most climbers can flash about 0.5 grade harder than the o/s level.

[jwi]

sorry didn't really read the o.p.

In bouldering, the best boulder around 8C+ and flashes 8B. So 4 grades then.

[The Aaronator]

I have a two grade gap on routes. But my best OS's were made in France at a time when I only RP'd routes I hadn't onsighted and I didn't try anything harder while out there. All my hard RP's have been made in England where the routes are fairly technical by comparison - interestingly, the difference goes up to four for routes only climbed in this country.

My bouldeing grade gap is similar as long as one does not count the traverses at Woodwell...

[rodma]

sorry didn't really read the o.p.

In bouldering, the best boulder around 8C+ and flashes 8B. So 4 grades then.

That's similar to my gap, only with significantly lower numbers (7b+ and 8a).

I'm pretty sure that's 3 grades, not 4, unless you know of some secret grade that falls in the sequence 8B, 8B+, 8C, 8C+, or maybe you have an abstract counting method (where 1=0) 

[jwi]

terribly embarrassing. Note to self: if it's after midnight, go to bed, don't write stupid shit.

[Rocksteady]

I'd have thought the difference between your flash and worked grade depends a lot on your strength relative to your technical ability.

If your technique and route reading are really good, there will be less difference between your flash grade and your worked grade - you're likely to get it right first time.

If you are strong but not great technically, you won't read the route right so won't flash it, but once you've worked the moves out you'll be strong enough to do them.

The top level guys obviously have great technique, but still have a few grades gap as they spend a long time on the seige so make specific strength improvements for the moves on that route/problem.

[slackline]

But if you're strong (in terms of endurance), but not great technically you can hang around for longer and work it out, giving you more chance of getting the on-sight/flash. 

[Tim Broughtonshaw]

7b+ and 8b for me ( 5 grades).  and only just got my first 7b+ flash last year prior to that it was 7b and 8b.  The 8b was some sieging however.

Tim

remember Gresh's logic for his courses was you should be able to redpoint 3 grades above your maximum onsight in a day.  And he managed to get his clients to achieve this. Although as previously explained with bouldering grades this maxim is probably les likely to be true as you get higher in the grades as a days worth of efficiency savings on a redpoint wont get around a boulder problem you are not strong enough to do.

[IanP]

3 to 4 for me (4 if you count one slightly contentious 8a)  - I have managed to onsight 7b in the UK  (once + a few flashes) but the majority have been abroad.   I would have though 3 to 4 is fairly average, 5 makes you a poor onsighter (or just somebody who spends a most of their time redpointing), better than 3 makes you a good onsighter (or poor redpointer!).

[Andy F]

I'd have said a 4 grade difference for a good all-rounder. Works for most people from the uberwads downwards eg Ondra 8c onsight vs 9b redpoint.

[Cassidy]

Routes wise if we count "continental softness" only my gap is 2.  I would argue that the term "continental breadth of choice" might actually be more appropriate but thats another argument. 

On the other hand if we only count UK sends my gap is 5.  Now I'm a heavy guy, no flexibility in the hips and don't get on well with vertical white limestone.  I do get on well with tufas, pinchs and long burly enduro fests, so no real surprise my onsight grade is bumped up a lot more in that style if you ask me. 

Onsightability is a bigger factor than "softness" once you know where the holds are on your average Malham route they feel no harder and often easier if you ask me than a lot of foreign routes. 

As for bouldering, can you actually onsight a boulder?
 

[andymarshll]

It's a five grade difference for me, but will the level at which you operate not make a difference? If the hardest someone'd worked was V6, i'd be very surprised if their best flash was just V1.

[Serpico]

Patxi's got a couple (more?) 8c+ onsights to his name, what's his hardest RP? 9a+? 2 grades difference.
I still reckon 3 grades for an all rounder.

[Fiend]

If there's 5 grades between your onsight and RP grade then you're a piss-poor onsighter. 3 is more like it for a well rounded climber, but I know people who've got it down to less.

5 for me, as the OP suggests. I spend the vast majority of my time onsighting: many hundred sport flashes vs. 2 proper redpoints. 


Edit: is this about bouldering / sport climbing?? The op says bouldering, but everyone is talking about sport climbing. If, perhaps, there was an unambiguous bouldering grading system that didn't look remotely similar to sport route grading and so couldn't be confused with it, this might be a lot simpler.... 


For bouldering, errr, 3 grades I think. Very close to being just one grade, luck plays a big role.

[JohnM]

It depends whether you take your max onsight grade or your average onsight grade i.e. the grade you would onsight 9 times out of 10.  With regards to Paxti, 8c+ is probably his max onsight grade as opposed to the grade he onsights nearly everytime so in that case the gap would be bigger.