[Falling Down]

Have I missed something? A new word seems to have entered our vocabulary... could someone kindly explain?

[slackline]

No idea but I'm guessing it could it be a portmanteau of Aerobic Capacity?

[Falling Down]

Thanks Slackers    I thought it was describing the wearing of an areted chocolate hat   

[slackline]

At least it wouldn't melt until you started eating it. 

[Norton Sharley]

It's to stop chocolate bars breeding

[Muenchener]

Damn. I though this was going to be a thread on "aerocap: does it work?".

To which the answer would be: yes.

I focused my November-December training on 20 to 30 minute traversing sessions, with the odd hour of proper bouldering thrown in to relive the tedium. Found myself afterwards not feeling pumped on straightforward but overhanging routes where I previously would have felt pumped, and not having become (even) weaker at bouldering either.

[hairich]

slackers is that a big word for mixing two words together?

[slackline]

slackers is that a big word for mixing two words together?

Yes (sometimes anyway)

[Falling Down]

Damn. I though this was going to be a thread on "aerocap: does it work?".

It was intended to be.  I wanted to know what it was... is it just a fancy word for Aerobic training, e.g. ARCing?

[Muenchener]

is it just a fancy word for Aerobic training, e.g. ARCing?

If there is some subtle difference, I am not aware of it.

[reeve]

The subtle difference is that you try and stay a bit pumped for the whole time you're on the wall, unlike ARCing where you're meant to be on easier ground and not pumped at all. The being 'a bit' pumped should still see you remain in control, no slapping required, but with a little discomfort in your forearms. Seems a lot more effective than ARCing, and as I love being pumped, it's loads more fun.

[slackline]

I love being pumped, it's loads more fun.

  Oh the innuendo's!

[Falling Down]

Thanks Reeve (I thought that might be the case). 

Here, have a chocolate hat as a reward.

[reeve]

I love being pumped, it's loads more fun.

  Oh the innuendo's!

Definitely referring to the climbing version, only way I'll ever last 15-30 minutes...

Thanks Reeve (I thought that might be the case). 

Here, have a chocolate hat as a reward.

Thanks man

[shark]

AeoCap tends to be intervals or circuits maintaining a slight pump to tax your aerobic energy system. Inevitably it is hard to keep it in the sweet zone all the time so shakeouts/rests are required. It is better to be guided by how you feel rather than the grades you think you should be doing - something I find tricky!

The aerobic capacity sessions I do are:

1. 4 x 4 routes. Lead a route twice and another route twice. The routes should be well below your max onsighting grade but still taxing but not terminally pumpy. Stay tied in throughout with your partner pulling the rope down (short rope helps) to minimise time between leads. I inevitably overcook this by being too ambitious with the grades. So 16 routes and some warm-ups gives you and your partner a good 2.5 hour workout. If you find you getting pumped just drop off return to the ground and get on easy stuff to finish the set.

2. 5 sets of 10 easyish boulder problems climbed quickly, back-to-back. 5 or 10 mins rest between sets. Guaranteed to get a sweat on.

3. Continuity. Lead a route and keep top roping it for 10 mins. 4 sets with 10 mins rest between sets. Amazing how long 10 minutes seems. Switch to an easier route on the same line if you are start getting anaerobic.

4. Not done this yet but a 2 x 20 move juggy circuit on my board which is a bit too hard for continuity. Going to try to do repeats of this with 30 sec rests. Perhaps building up to doing 4 sets of 4 reps (640 moves). It would be even better if the angle was less steep and the rest between circuits was on a shakeout jug.
       
The benefits of raising your aerobic threshold in staving off a pump are obvious. This work should also allow you to do more routes on a climbing day and aid recovery between days.

I want to be a machine.

[Muenchener]

The subtle difference is that you try and stay a bit pumped for the whole time you're on the wall, unlike ARCing where you're meant to be on easier ground and not pumped at all.

Ok, great. Then I was doing it right by accident all along. I discovered rather quickly in my ARCing aerocap career that ground easy enough for me to not get pumped at all doesn't exist outside of no-hands slabs.

[Rocksteady]

Thanks for the info Shark.

To break this down into 'layman's' terms, with respect to the effect you are hoping to achieve - is the following a correct summary?

Aerocap aim = same as ARCing = increase the number of moves you can do before starting to get pumped?

eg. Boulder 4 x 4s / power endurance training = increase the number of moves you can do when the pump has set in?

[Three Nine]

abarro81 explained aerocap to me as 'hard ARCing'. What I do is less fancy than what Shark does - I just get on a gently overhanging wall and stay gently pumped for 40mins. A lot of that time is spent just in resting positions shaking out. Its easy to get the right level like that. Cons - its miserable, boring, and prob not good for developing technique. Also, prob not very useful unless you aspire to be a king of european stamina (which I do).

[shark]

Thanks for the info Shark.
To break this down into 'layman's' terms, with respect to the effect you are hoping to achieve - is the following a correct summary?
Aerocap aim = same as ARCing = increase the number of moves you can do before starting to get pumped?
eg. Boulder 4 x 4s / power endurance training = increase the number of moves you can do when the pump has set in?

I just do as I'm told but as I understand it increasing your Aerobic Capacity should also give you more in terms of recovery too -that is recovery on shakeouts, recovery between routes and recovery between days. Similarly power endurance revolves around intensity x time or number of moves so increasing anaerobic capacity also means you can do the same number of moves at a higher level of intensity.

[Falling Down]

I want to be a machine.

Excellent explanation - thanks.

[shark]

I had a look into it what Macia said about this (between sets naturally)

There are 3 types of energy system the muscles use: Aerobic, Anaerobic(Lactic) and Anaerobic (Alactic). The rate at which the energy produced by these systems can be exhausted vary depending on the intensity of the work. The higher intensity, quicker burnout of each system is refered to as 'potential'. The lower intensity slower burn is referred to as 'capacity'.

The guidance for training AeroCap is 45mins - 2hrs continuous climbing of up to 70% intensity with low lactic levels whereas for Aerobic Potential it is 30mins - 45mins continuous climbing up to 75% intensity with low-med lactic levels

It seems to me that what I thought was AeroCap is more likely Aerobic potential.

[abarro81]

It seems to me that what I thought was AeroCap is more likely Aerobic potential.

Ditto. Maybe I'll do some longer stuff in future too.
I also don't do any fancy sets - I just get on the juggy problems on the wave or the 30 degree board and roof at the matrix and stay there for 20-40 mins. Pumped but in control. Easy to tag this onto the end of other sessions too - I never do it on its own unless it's for active rest.

Randall is the man with the (training) plan in my experience.

[Duncan Disorderly]

So is tagging AeroCap (or AreoPot ) onto a fingerboard,  or Anerobic (either capacity or power) session the way to go would you say?

Looking at the next few weeks plan I've gotta double up some sessions so this might be the way (an hour hanging around at the end of a works session when everyone else has cleared off might make me a bit less unpopular too).

:D

[Tommy]

To be honest, it's best not to get too hung up on whether something is aerobic capacity or potential. The whole system within climbing training has enough problems with mixed up terminology that it's best to keep it simple!

In essence any of the endurance work that anyone does down the wall will fall into the bottom end of aerobic capacity all the way through to the top end of aerobic potential (if we're sticking to Macia terminology). What's important however, is not the wondering, but the doing..... ;-). Slog it out boys!! 

Both high end a low end endurance (God, this terminology drives me mental!) have their place - it's just a matter of getting the volume and intensity right for your own personal needs.

Duncan - yeah, definitely a good idea to tag the aero cap onto the end of hard short sessions of bouldering/finger boarding. Combo sessions are definitely the way to go in my experience. You can achieve more for the time spend down the wall each week. An important thing, when you're a hard working parent. 

[Tommy]

In reply to Shark - Binney's sports science just lumps Macia's AeroCap and AeroPot into one big thing i.e. AeroCap. I think this is the easiest way to go as when you start looking at the 6 different energy systems in Macias stuff it all gets a bit confusing and you end up getting a bad headache...

People also often refer to "continuity training" as aerocap on Macias terminology or "low end endurance" in Binney's.

Hope this helps. 

[Duncan Disorderly]

Cheers for the clarification Tom - I thought you'd said this but I forget stuff easily

I'm definitely a parent.... but hard working... That's debatable

[Fiend]

Ancap - que?

[slackline]

Ancap - que?

Its polar opposite Anaerobic Capacity.

[Fiend]

I guessed that. What would Ancap train for and what would be Ancap training?

[slackline]

Doing lengths underwater

[shark]

I guessed that. What would Ancap train for and what would be Ancap training?

AnCap mainly trains the local energy systems in your forearms to repeatedly endure sequences of 10-15 hard moves that you would typically encounter on a sport route. An AnCap routine might be a set of 4 repeats of a sustained sequence of 15 hard moves with 2 mins rest between goes to form a set. Do 3 sets with 10mins rest between sets = 120 moves in total.     

More here: http://ukbouldering.com/media/pdf/principlestraining.pdf

[douglas]

The way I understood it from the slides above was that AnCap was training to generate lactate while AnPot is the training to tolerate lactic acid.

Is this true? I find the slides a nightmare to get my head around...

[cjsheps]

Like many AeroCap-ers, I'm aiming for Euro stamina. I've been doing very little except this (and the odd power session to make sure I don't become even more terminally weak!). Gotta say that the gains are insane - even though my bouldering's suffering slightly, I've gone from "totally unable to recover on buckets" to being alright at shaking out which is a big change for me.

If you can't get down the wall for the optimal 4 sessions a week, just do 10-20mins of moving hangs on a fingerboard with your feet on a chair, and repeat that twice. You can really nicely manage the pump, and suddenly climbing intervals doesn't seem anywhere near as dull!

[LB1782]

I've attempted to summarise bits of this thread by adding an- and aero-cap sections to the wiki:

http://www.ukbouldering.com/wiki/index.php/Training_:_The_Science

It could use an edit from someone who properly knows what they are talking about.

[Sasquatch]

I've attempted to summarise bits of this thread by adding an- and aero-cap sections to the wiki:

http://www.ukbouldering.com/wiki/index.php/Training_:_The_Science

It could use an edit from someone who properly knows what they are talking about.

My training experience comes from more of a Running/Biking/Triathlon background, but I think the basic concepts are still the same. 

That said, The wiki REALLY needs a more thorough introduction to training.  Right now the wiki page lists exercises(specific), but does not address training(holistic). 

To paraphrase a quote from a friend who has helped me understand training(Mike Barcom):

Training is a pre-meditated routine that is planned intelligently with the hope of attaining some tangible/defined goal.  It should be designed deliberately to transform your body towards whatever end you have in mind, and draw from the body of knowledge available by using specific exercises to create the gains that are desired.

Doing pre-planned workouts does not equate to training unless they are all designed to work together over time to acheive a defined goal.  For example we all know guys who fingerboard and campus, but are they training? or just exercising?  Another example is the concept of recovery.  Too much or too little recovery can destroy the worth of any specific workout.

[shark]

My training experience comes from more of a Running/Biking/Triathlon background, but I think the basic concepts are still the same. 

That said, The wiki REALLY needs a more thorough introduction to training.  Right now the wiki page lists exercises(specific), but does not address training(holistic). 

To paraphrase a quote from a friend who has helped me understand training(Mike Barcom):

Training is a pre-meditated routine that is planned intelligently with the hope of attaining some tangible/defined goal.  It should be designed deliberately to transform your body towards whatever end you have in mind, and draw from the body of knowledge available by using specific exercises to create the gains that are desired.

Doing pre-planned workouts does not equate to training unless they are all designed to work together over time to acheive a defined goal.  For example we all know guys who fingerboard and campus, but are they training? or just exercising?  Another example is the concept of recovery.  Too much or too little recovery can destroy the worth of any specific workout.

Good post and welcome to UKB.

Fancy having a crack at that introduction ?

Also we have a listing of training resources on the web which is a sticky post here

The presentations from the BMC Symposium in particular are a good introduction to systematic training.

Periodisation by Tom Randall
Principles of Training by Dave Binney

[slackline]

That said, The wiki REALLY needs a more thorough introduction to training.  Right now the wiki page lists exercises(specific), but does not address training(holistic). 

I've collated a lot of the stuff there, simply because it was one place to do so rather than having it spread over various threads.

I know dick all about training and do very little, hence the lack of coherent structure, just thought it might be useful to have everything in one place.

Like shark says, you can use your UKB log-in to edit the wiki to your hearts content.

[ghisino]

questions to those who play with aerocap here...
1. is it supposed to make your forearms feel rather dull the next day?
2.how many days to fully recover in your experience?

[highrepute]

1. is it supposed to make your forearms feel rather dull the next day?
2.how many days to fully recover in your experience?

Should be almost invigorating, many will do aerocap on a rest day as an active rest. If you've only just started doing it maybe you will take a few sessions to get used to it. try lowering the intensity a bit.

1. I'd expect to feel fresh if all i've done the day before is 20/30 mins aerocap
2. zero days

[Sasquatch]

...
Good post and welcome to UKB.

Fancy having a crack at that introduction ?

Also we have a listing of training resources on the web which is a sticky post here

The presentations from the BMC Symposium in particular are a good introduction to systematic training.

Periodisation by Tom Randall
Principles of Training by Dave Binney

I'd be game to give the intro a shot.  I'm always looking for stuff on the net about training and that sticky post is what brought me here.

Short Answer to Aerocap Question:  Agree with highrepute.

Long answer to the Aero-Cap concept, my .02$ is that there are two ways to do this.  One is more of an active recovery/maintenance type of function, the other is actually trying to "train/improve" your aerobic capacity. 

In the first case, this should be a relatively short session focusing on generating blood flow through your body, and specifically to the climbing muscles.  You should be going VERY easy (probably easier than you think), and should finish your workout feeling better than when you started.  An example for me is 6 x 5min on the wall (constant movement on really good holds, avoid no-hands resting) with 1-2 minutes rest between repeats.

In the second case, you would generally be having a longer session, and while you are still doing mainly easy climbing, you'll get tired by the end simply due to the volume. An example for me of this is once a week I do 4 x 30 min on wall (constant movement on really good holds, avoid no-hands resting) with 3-5 minutes rest between repeats.

 

[shark]

I'd be game to give the intro a shot.  I'm always looking for stuff on the net about training and that sticky post is what brought me here.