[Denbob99]

Will have to pick this up, my head is holding back my sport climbing in a huge way at the minute and need to get it sorted!

[measles23]

http://www.t-nation.com/training/current-state-of-sc-coaching
Rippetoe is God and this is his Bible.

Hate to rock your faith Nibs but the Lord Thy God Rippetoe doth disapprove of your feeble efforts with 1-armers:

7th Commandment: "We know how to make people stronger. It doesn't involve single-leg anythings, single-arm anythings...."

 

[blamo]

The next time I am getting punted off my project I will remember this and tell myself: " It is because you don't use barbells effectively."  Who needs finger strength when you can deadlift 5 sport climbers at once? 

[Muenchener]

Will have to pick this up, my head is holding back my sport climbing in a huge way at the minute and need to get it sorted!

Don McGrath, one of the authors of Vertical Mind, has quite a few articles online that I personally didn't find that compelling. But you can read them and then decide if the book might be for you, so that's a plus.

What I have found worthwhile is Arno Ilgner's Espresso Lessons. Concise, apparently sensible advice without the New-Ageyness that I gather put some people off his other, longer book. (I can't help you with the fact that it's twice as expensive on amazon uk kindle as on amazon.de though)

[creedence]

Will have to pick this up, my head is holding back my sport climbing in a huge way at the minute and need to get it sorted!

What I have found worthwhile is Arno Ilgner's Espresso Lessons. Concise, apparently sensible advice without the New-Ageyness that I gather put some people off his other, longer book. (I can't help you with the fact that it's twice as expensive on amazon uk kindle as on amazon.de though)

Any idea how it compares to the full book?  I left the Rock Warriors Way on a plane shortly after I started reading it  , so need to rebuy it, but may opt for the more concise 'Espresso Lessons'.

Additionally, looking for the above on Amazon, lead me to this:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Climb-With-Power-Strength-Conditioning-ebook/dp/B00OGTY1W4/ref=pd_sim_kinc_4?ie=UTF8&refRID=1A1MZGFP1VNFESMPRKHN

Has anyone read that?  It's cheap enough that I'm tempted and appears as if it may present a useful collation of core exercises, and the look inside presents classic quotes such as this:

Start your day with the same relaxing song.  I like Bob Marley's Three Little Birds.  When busy thoughts enter your head answer them with a phase [sic] you have chosen. 'breathe deeper', 'I am a fucking ninja'...

[Muenchener]

Never heard of Sean Mapoles, but he appears to have a sense of humour & it's four Euros on amazon.de kindle. Sold.

I mean, at that price, even if the advice is all crap there's the guaranteed fitness benefit from not drinking the one-and-a-bit beers

[Nibile]

http://www.t-nation.com/training/current-state-of-sc-coaching
Rippetoe is God and this is his Bible.

Hate to rock your faith Nibs but the Lord Thy God Rippetoe doth disapprove of your feeble efforts with 1-armers:

7th Commandment: "We know how to make people stronger. It doesn't involve single-leg anythings, single-arm anythings...."

 

Sad but true.

[blamo]

I have read it.  I didn't find much in it beyond a few entertaining quotes.   

Has anyone read that?  It's cheap enough that I'm tempted and appears as if it may present a useful collation of core exercises, and the look inside presents classic quotes such as this:

Start your day with the same relaxing song.  I like Bob Marley's Three Little Birds.  When busy thoughts enter your head answer them with a phase [sic] you have chosen. 'breathe deeper', 'I am a fucking ninja'...

[slackline]

Lauersen JB, Bertelsen DM, Andersen LB (2014) The effectiveness of exercise interventions to prevent sports injuries: a systematic review and meta-analysis of randomised controlled trials Br J Sports Med 48:871-877


Letter to the Editor In response to: Jeppe Bo Lauersen, Ditte Marie Bertelsen, Lars Bo Andersen.

[fatneck]

Good core training article on UKC...

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=7059

[duncan]

Line by line I disagreed with almost everything in it. Some of my differences are opinion but some emphatically are not just opinion. I know one of the authors so I'll avoid being too argumentative.

And I can't take anyone seriously who still wears those five finger shoes.

[fatneck]

And I can't take anyone seriously who still wears those five finger shoes

Agree with this...

[Oldmanmatt]

Line by line I disagreed with almost everything in it. Some of my differences are opinion but some emphatically are not just opinion. I know one of the authors so I'll avoid being too argumentative.

And I can't take anyone seriously who still wears those five finger shoes.

You can't be allowed to get away with that.

'Fess up! What's wrong and why?

😜

(Caveat, just skimmed it because I'm working, will read it properly this evening).

[Nibile]

I haven't read it all either, but judging by the pics enlightening the muscles (the abs), it could be that it completely overlooks glutes and hamstrings.
I've found out, by training specifically core tension on my board, that staying put on steep terrain with small feet involves tons of pulling with glutes and hamstrings, along with abs.
Abs work only the lower torso, stopping at the pelvis, but then you have your legs that have to stay tight to maintain contact with the footholds. And abs don't move legs.
And the usual demonstrative video. Glutes and hamstrings engage to push the pelvis up after putting the foot on the foothold.

[Nibile]

http://www.t-nation.com/training/best-way-to-lift-weights

[Nibile]

http://www.t-nation.com/training/core-confusion
Core involves shoulders, neck, glutes, etc.

[mrjonathanr]

And I can't take anyone seriously who still wears those five finger shoes.

How many fingers should the shoes have then? 

[duncan]

And I can't take anyone seriously who still wears those five finger shoes.

How many fingers should the shoes have then? 

 

Flippancy aside, they are of a piece with much of the content of the article. 

Each stage of the proposed nasty western lifestyle leads to weak core leads to pain was disproven years ago. The appeal is the usual ‘natural is good' tosh. See also barefoot running, paleo. diets, anthrax, deadly nightshade and dentistry without anaesthetic (I'm not completely sure about the last one).

The incidence of back pain is just as high in developing as in western countries, it only seems less because most folk in developing countries don't seek help because they can't afford to or have more pressing things to worry about.

There is no proven relationship between core muscle function and back pain. The highly influential theory that transversus abdominis acts as a 'corset' that 'stabilises' the spine has been disproven. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22000066. I spent some time studying transversus abdominis function and I have to conclude I was probably wasting my time. http://tinyurl.com/l7q2ow6

Many people find Pilates/yoga/'core stability' training helpful for back pain but the way these exercises work doesn't seem to have anything to do with core muscles getting stronger or working differently. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22146280 The latest theory is that their effect is down to 'mindful movement'. Watch this space.

I've done two RTCs investigating 'core training' treatments for back pain and in both cases the core training was no better than general exercises (for the 'wrong' muscles if you believe the UKC article). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17572614  Core training is clearly better than doing nothing but not better than doing some other activity. Dozens of other trials have similar conclusions. The latest systematic review concluded that no more clinical trials of core training are needed because the evidence for this is so strong. http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2474/15/416/

[Oldmanmatt]

And I can't take anyone seriously who still wears those five finger shoes.

How many fingers should the shoes have then? 

 

Flippancy aside, they are of a piece with much of the content of the article. 

Each stage of the proposed nasty western lifestyle leads to weak core leads to pain was disproven years ago. The appeal is the usual ‘natural is good' tosh. See also barefoot running, paleo. diets, anthrax, deadly nightshade and dentistry without anaesthetic (I'm not completely sure about the last one).

The incidence of back pain is just as high in developing as in western countries, it only seems less because most folk in developing countries don't seek help because they can't afford to or have more pressing things to worry about.

There is no proven relationship between core muscle function and back pain. The highly influential theory that transversus abdominis acts as a 'corset' that 'stabilises' the spine has been disproven. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22000066. I spent some time studying transversus abdominis function and I have to conclude I was probably wasting my time. http://tinyurl.com/l7q2ow6

Many people find Pilates/yoga/'core stability' training helpful for back pain but the way these exercises work doesn't seem to have anything to do with core muscles getting stronger or working differently. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22146280 The latest theory is that their effect is down to 'mindful movement'. Watch this space.

I've done two RTCs investigating 'core training' treatments for back pain and in both cases the core training was no better than general exercises (for the 'wrong' muscles if you believe the UKC article). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17572614  Core training is clearly better than doing nothing but not better than doing some other activity. Dozens of other trials have similar conclusions. The latest systematic review concluded that no more clinical trials of core training are needed because the evidence for this is so strong. http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2474/15/416/

Wow!

It's OMM Xmas...

I shall mostly be reading the rest of the week. Ta.

[Oldmanmatt]

On a side note.

My ten years or so in and out of Eastern Europe, time in Africa, South America and Asia has left me under no illusions as to the benefits of a "primitive" lifestyle and diet.
"Backbreaking" work is not a euphemism.

[tj]

Cheers for posting the above, Duncan.

In a slightly more digestible format (for me at least!), Ben Smith talks about the findings of the aforementioned systematic review-

http://chewshealth.co.uk/the-physio-matters-podcast/

[Oldmanmatt]

And I can't take anyone seriously who still wears those five finger shoes.

How many fingers should the shoes have then? 

 

Flippancy aside, they are of a piece with much of the content of the article. 

Each stage of the proposed nasty western lifestyle leads to weak core leads to pain was disproven years ago. The appeal is the usual ‘natural is good' tosh. See also barefoot running, paleo. diets, anthrax, deadly nightshade and dentistry without anaesthetic (I'm not completely sure about the last one).

The incidence of back pain is just as high in developing as in western countries, it only seems less because most folk in developing countries don't seek help because they can't afford to or have more pressing things to worry about.

There is no proven relationship between core muscle function and back pain. The highly influential theory that transversus abdominis acts as a 'corset' that 'stabilises' the spine has been disproven. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22000066. I spent some time studying transversus abdominis function and I have to conclude I was probably wasting my time. http://tinyurl.com/l7q2ow6

Many people find Pilates/yoga/'core stability' training helpful for back pain but the way these exercises work doesn't seem to have anything to do with core muscles getting stronger or working differently. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22146280 The latest theory is that their effect is down to 'mindful movement'. Watch this space.

I've done two RTCs investigating 'core training' treatments for back pain and in both cases the core training was no better than general exercises (for the 'wrong' muscles if you believe the UKC article). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17572614  Core training is clearly better than doing nothing but not better than doing some other activity. Dozens of other trials have similar conclusions. The latest systematic review concluded that no more clinical trials of core training are needed because the evidence for this is so strong. http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2474/15/416/

So, having now read most of this....

My impression is that so-called  "Core specific" exercises are no more (but equally no less) beneficial than general strength training and that taken with this (that I posted earlier on the stretching thread)
http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/48/11/871.full?sid=19efc261-b870-4eaa-88c0-31fda65de99f
Good, overall, balanced strength training; including a modicum of flexibility work and the avoidance of overly specific routines, might be the way ahead...

[Rocksteady]

And I can't take anyone seriously who still wears those five finger shoes.

How many fingers should the shoes have then? 

 

Flippancy aside, they are of a piece with much of the content of the article. 

Each stage of the proposed nasty western lifestyle leads to weak core leads to pain was disproven years ago. The appeal is the usual ‘natural is good' tosh. See also barefoot running, paleo. diets, anthrax, deadly nightshade and dentistry without anaesthetic (I'm not completely sure about the last one).

The incidence of back pain is just as high in developing as in western countries, it only seems less because most folk in developing countries don't seek help because they can't afford to or have more pressing things to worry about.

There is no proven relationship between core muscle function and back pain. The highly influential theory that transversus abdominis acts as a 'corset' that 'stabilises' the spine has been disproven. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22000066. I spent some time studying transversus abdominis function and I have to conclude I was probably wasting my time. http://tinyurl.com/l7q2ow6

Many people find Pilates/yoga/'core stability' training helpful for back pain but the way these exercises work doesn't seem to have anything to do with core muscles getting stronger or working differently. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22146280 The latest theory is that their effect is down to 'mindful movement'. Watch this space.

I've done two RTCs investigating 'core training' treatments for back pain and in both cases the core training was no better than general exercises (for the 'wrong' muscles if you believe the UKC article). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17572614  Core training is clearly better than doing nothing but not better than doing some other activity. Dozens of other trials have similar conclusions. The latest systematic review concluded that no more clinical trials of core training are needed because the evidence for this is so strong. http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2474/15/416/

All the resources you've quoted seem to be about the ineffectiveness of 'core' training to remedy back pain. That's well established. But the UKC article was about strengthening your core to improve your climbing, with only one small reference to western lifestyles disengaging the core.

Do you disagree that using the exercises in the article would improve your core strength in such a way that would benefit your climbing?

[duncan]

All the resources you've quoted seem to be about the ineffectiveness of 'core' training to remedy back pain. That's well established. But the UKC article was about strengthening your core to improve your climbing ...

Do you disagree that using the exercises in the article would improve your core strength in such a way that would benefit your climbing?

I don't doubt the importance of back, hip, shoulder and abdominal muscles for harder bouldering or steep sport routes. I think the jury is still out on the need to train those muscles in isolation. The authors propose that all climbers can improve by doing specific core training. I think this is complete nonsense. Are they really saying that your average VS/F6a/V3 punter - the relationship of the grades tells you all you need to know about the major weakness of most 'average' climbers - would benefit from core training? 

One of the key principles of strength training is specificity. Climbers obsess over to what degree training open-handed carries over to crimping, recognising that training has to be highly specific to work. And yet when it comes to training the trunk muscles this seems to be completely forgotten! All kinds of completely non-specific exercises are recommended. Most work on specificity has been done on lower limb exercise but we did a study on different types of abdominal muscle training and found it applies here too. People who followed a Pilates programme improved activation of trans. abs. when doing Pilates exercises but not in other tests. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21075038
The take-home message is that trunk muscle exercises must closely resemble climbing to help your climbing.

One of the theses of the UKC article (and it is repeated elsewhere) is that adding instability to an exercise, using gym balls for example, will increase the activation of the deeper muscles like transversus abdominis. I've researched this and we found the trans. abs. were not working any harder sitting on a gym ball than on a chair http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16009592
The exercise may feel harder but it's not because the deepest trunk muscles are working more.  Adding instability is a standard practice in training for sports like football and rugby where there is a lot of uncertainty and the playing surface is unstable. Adding instability is specific for these sports. Climbing is not like this and it is lazy to simply assume that because something feels harder (because it is unstable) that it will be benefiting you more. A more speculative thought is that training in a way that doesn't resemble the real activity might actually reduce your performance. Ondra makes this point in his fascinating trainingbeta interview, he is acutely aware that training with a vest inhibits his movement efficiency even as he gets stronger. This seems an important point lost on the personal trainers now moving into climbing coaching.

So if you wish to train your core or your posterior chain or whatever, don't just think about which muscles to train, think about how to train them. Your exercises should as closely resemble the climbing moves you want to improve as possible. Superman exercises may target the back and hip extensors but I doubt if they will do much for your rock-overs, dynoing, or even keeping your feet on for 20 minutes in the Grande Grotta despite targeting the 'right' muscles. They might even reduce your movement efficiency by training trunk muscle to co-contract leading to an over-rigid trunk.

You might just be better focusing on learning moving effectively on a steep board to get better at climbing on steep rock.

[mrjonathanr]

You might just be better focusing on learning moving effectively on a steep board to get better at climbing on steep rock.